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GlassBeadGame
I almost never post, let alone start a thread, on in Articles.

CSPAN's "Books" TV is replaying a recent set of interviews with Gunter Grass and Norman Mailer. While watching, as is my practice, I looked up Grass's Article on WP.

Grass is one of the most important European writer of a generation. In 1999 he was awarded the Noble Prize for Literature. He has been out spoken in favor of democracy and liberal moderate socialism. He was 6 years old when Hitler came to power and as a teenager served in a SS unit.

Despite Grass's prolific career and widespread literary influence a full one half of the WP article focuses on his disclosure in the past year on his SS involvement. 3/4 of the articles references are on the involvement. Yet even while excessively dwelling on this recent event the article fails to shed any light on the only fact that would matter, "was his SS participation voluntary." The article also abruptly ends the with incident without any kind of conclusion paragraph providing perspective into his overall career.

This illustrates that far from caring about being encyclopedic WP editor just want to chase easy and trendy stories. They are also incapable of gaining the perspective that refraining from adding content prior to the dust settling would provide. The article would be better served with a mere sentence or two about the recent disclosure.
JohnA
QUOTE
What happened in the unseen labyrinth to which the pneumatic tubes led, he did not know in detail, but he did know in general terms. As soon as all the corrections which happened to be necessary in any particular number of The Times had been assembled and collated, that number would be reprinted, the original copy destroyed, and the corrected copy placed on the files in its stead.

This process of continuous alteration was applied not only to newspapers, but to books, periodicals, pamphlets, posters, leaflets, films, sound-tracks, cartoons, photographs -- to every kind of literature or documentation which might conceivably hold any political or ideological significance. Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date.

In this way every prediction made by the Party could be shown by documentary evidence to have been correct, nor was any item of news, or any expression of opinion, which conflicted with the needs of the moment, ever allowed to remain on record. All history was a palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary. In no case would it have been possible, once the deed was done, to prove that any falsification had taken place.

......

Even the written instructions which Winston received, and which he invariably got rid of as soon as he had dealt with them, never stated or implied that an act of forgery was to be committed: always the reference was to slips, errors, misprints, or misquotations which it was necessary to put right in the interests of accuracy.


1984, George Orwell
badlydrawnjeff
Recentism means crappy articles now for a better one later. The minor dangers in undue weight get evened out once everything shuffles out, and that's a net benefit.

IMO, of course.
GlassBeadGame
QUOTE(JohnA @ Sun 15th July 2007, 11:29am) *

QUOTE
What happened in the unseen labyrinth to which the pneumatic tubes led, he did not know in detail, but he did know in general terms. As soon as all the corrections which happened to be necessary in any particular number of The Times had been assembled and collated, that number would be reprinted, the original copy destroyed, and the corrected copy placed on the files in its stead.

This process of continuous alteration was applied not only to newspapers, but to books, periodicals, pamphlets, posters, leaflets, films, sound-tracks, cartoons, photographs -- to every kind of literature or documentation which might conceivably hold any political or ideological significance. Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date.

In this way every prediction made by the Party could be shown by documentary evidence to have been correct, nor was any item of news, or any expression of opinion, which conflicted with the needs of the moment, ever allowed to remain on record. All history was a palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary. In no case would it have been possible, once the deed was done, to prove that any falsification had taken place.

......

Even the written instructions which Winston received, and which he invariably got rid of as soon as he had dealt with them, never stated or implied that an act of forgery was to be committed: always the reference was to slips, errors, misprints, or misquotations which it was necessary to put right in the interests of accuracy.


1984, George Orwell


That is a remarkable prescient description of a web 2.0 nightmare. Thank God they can't wiki down the actual books. At least not yet.
Chris Croy
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame)
Despite Grass's prolific career and widespread literary influence a full one half of the WP article focuses on his disclosure in the past year on his SS involvement. 3/4 of the articles references are on the involvement.

That's normal. The uncontroversial portions of a persons' life can usually be easily sourced to a few sources. The controversial portions usually require a great deal more sources to adequately cover.
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame)
Yet even while excessively dwelling on this recent event the article fails to shed any light on the only fact that would matter, "was his SS participation voluntary."

QUOTE(The article)
In 2007, Grass published an account of his wartime experience in The New Yorker, including an attempt to "string together the circumstances that probably triggered and nourished my decision to enlist."

QUOTE(GlassBeadGame)
The article also abruptly ends the with incident without any kind of conclusion paragraph providing perspective into his overall career.

Here, let me try.

"Günter Grass wrote three books. He won a lot of awards for those books. Then he wrote a bunch of really awful books that everyone (including the authors of this article) like to pretend don't exist. Also, he's a Nazi and didn't admit it for over 50 years. The end."
GlassBeadGame
QUOTE(Chris Croy @ Sun 15th July 2007, 2:09pm) *


QUOTE(The article)
In 2007, Grass published an account of his wartime experience in The New Yorker, including an attempt to "string together the circumstances that probably triggered and nourished my decision to enlist."




But also from the same article, quoting GG:

QUOTE
It happened as it did to many of my age. We were in the labour service and all at once, a year later, the call-up notice lay on the table. And only when I got to Dresden did I learn it was the Waffen-SS.


We could go back and forth a couple more times like this with the content of the article.

I don't have a position on GG's war record other than if his participation in the SS, as opposed to the ordinary army, was voluntary he should have disclosed it. He was still just a boy, but the omission continued into his 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s. He had a continuing, and increasing obligation to disclose. But the article, despite its disproportionate attention to the issue is simply not helpful.

Robster
QUOTE(badlydrawnjeff @ Sun 15th July 2007, 1:36pm) *

Recentism means crappy articles now for a better one later. The minor dangers in undue weight get evened out once everything shuffles out, and that's a net benefit.


But people get slandered -- or worse -- in the 'here and now' while you wait for someone to come along and shuffle it out later.

I'm not saying that is what happened here, but it is a problem. The rush to write something leads to junk that gets scraped and stays afloat long after the original article is fixed.

It really would be better to stand back and get a little perspective. Let Wikinews handle the here-and-now, and Wikipedia come in later and try to get the long view.
GoodFaith
QUOTE(Robster' da?te='Sun 15th July 2007, 5:19pm) *


It really would be better to stand back and get a little perspective. Let Wikinews handle the here-and-now, and Wikipedia come in later and try to get the long view.


Anyone who didn't do strange, regrettable things as a teenager just hasn't lived. Why should those things be read into every move you make?
Chris Croy
QUOTE(Robster @ Sun 15th July 2007, 4:19pm) *


But people get slandered -- or worse -- in the 'here and now' while you wait for someone to come along and shuffle it out later.

I'm not saying that is what happened here, but it is a problem. The rush to write something leads to junk that gets scraped and stays afloat long after the original article is fixed.

It really would be better to stand back and get a little perspective. Let Wikinews handle the here-and-now, and Wikipedia come in later and try to get the long view.

I don't understand the drive to push news off onto Wikinews. Current events are where Wikipedia should - and does - thrive. Whereas neither I nor most Wikipedians are able to really write an article about Gunter Grass, anyone with a pulse can find and add a relevant piece of information to a Wikipedia article about a current event. Most news stories are deliberately written for the lowest common denominator, so it's difficult to screw up. The Teeming Millions can meaningfully contribute. I can think of several instances off-hand of people saying something to me to the effect of "...and during <X>, Wikipedia had the best coverage and I kept refreshing it for the latest info." where X was the Virginia Tech massacre, Katrina, or a dozen other major disasters.

If someone is getting lots of press for <X>, it WILL get added to the article. It doesn't matter if it's over on Wikinews too because no one reads Wikinews. A newbie will look at the article, notice that <event> is conspicuously absent, and add it while thinking about how they're helping build an encyclopedia. My solution would be to shove most current event information into sub-articles, then merge the relevant info into the core article once the hullabaloo dies down.
GlassBeadGame
QUOTE(Chris Croy @ Mon 16th July 2007, 2:46am) *

Most news stories are deliberately written for the lowest common denominator, so it's difficult to screw up.


And the articles will be as good as the sources.
guy
QUOTE(Chris Croy @ Mon 16th July 2007, 9:46am) *

The Teeming Millions can meaningfully contribute.

QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Mon 16th July 2007, 4:41pm) *

And the articles will be as good as the sources.

... subject to the abilities of the contributors.
GlassBeadGame
QUOTE(guy @ Mon 16th July 2007, 1:50pm) *

QUOTE(Chris Croy @ Mon 16th July 2007, 9:46am) *

The Teeming Millions can meaningfully contribute.

QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Mon 16th July 2007, 4:41pm) *

And the articles will be as good as the sources.

... subject to the abilities of the contributors.


Right. I should have said "no better than the sources," which are already debased. They may in fact be considerably worse.

In the case of the Gunter Grass article a mediocre article was made a complete disaster by the teeming millions falling on a trendy event.
Somey
QUOTE(Chris Croy @ Mon 16th July 2007, 3:46am) *
If someone is getting lots of press for <X>, it WILL get added to the article. It doesn't matter if it's over on Wikinews too because no one reads Wikinews. A newbie will look at the article, notice that <event> is conspicuously absent, and add it while thinking about how they're helping build an encyclopedia. My solution would be to shove most current event information into sub-articles, then merge the relevant info into the core article once the hullabaloo dies down.

That would probably work, though it hardly seems much different from having the current event covered by WikiNews, with a link to that coverage from the WP article - which would almost have to be semi-protected in the meantime...

Or am I missing something? Do people on WP not trust the WikiNews people to do a decent job of things, or maybe they think the WikiNews people don't write in a proper "encyclopedic" style or something?

I suppose the cynical view would be that the WP types simply want greater content control, and/or see WikiNews as a poor cousin.
Chris Croy
QUOTE(Somey @ Mon 16th July 2007, 12:06pm) *

I suppose the cynical view would be that the WP types simply want greater content control, and/or see WikiNews as a poor cousin.


Poor cousin. Wikinews lacks a clearly demarcated purpose. Compare it with Wiktionary. Everyone knows that if an article or substantial piece of an article doesn't seem to be much more than a dictionary definition, you transwiki it to Wiktionary. The 1948 U.S. presidential election is clearly encyclopedic, so wont the 2008 one also be clearly encyclopedic? If so, why even bother with a Wikinews article when you know you're just going to move it to the Big Brother eventually? It's just pointless sleight of hand.
Robster
QUOTE(Chris Croy @ Mon 16th July 2007, 4:48pm) *

If so, why even bother with a Wikinews article when you know you're just going to move it to the Big Brother eventually? It's just pointless sleight of hand.


Because news isn't always encyclopedic.
GoodFaith
QUOTE(Robster @ Mon 16th July 2007, 5:28pm) *

QUOTE(Chris Croy @ Mon 16th July 2007, 4:48pm) *

If so, why even bother with a Wikinews article when you know you're just going to move it to the Big Brother eventually? It's just pointless sleight of hand.


Because news isn't always encyclopedic.


But Wikipedia is not an encyclopedia.
everyking
The thing about "recentism" is that when you record things really well as they're happening, you can get a really great depth of coverage that becomes more difficult to match as time passes. It's like telling some athlete with a lot of potential to wait until he's 30 or 40 to get serious about the sport. You record it now, people can read it and benefit from it now, and long past the point when it's guilty of some make-believe sin for being recent, it will become great, detailed history. The article gets unbalanced due to current events? Blame it on the inadequate coverage of the past and fix that. Bring up the bad to match the good, don't bring down the good to match the bad. Create extensive detail on everything.
Firsfron of Ronchester
QUOTE(everyking @ Tue 17th July 2007, 7:23am) *

The thing about "recentism" is that when you record things really well as they're happening, you can get a really great depth of coverage that becomes more difficult to match as time passes. It's like telling some athlete with a lot of potential to wait until he's 30 or 40 to get serious about the sport. You record it now, people can read it and benefit from it now, and long past the point when it's guilty of some make-believe sin for being recent, it will become great, detailed history. The article gets unbalanced due to current events? Blame it on the inadequate coverage of the past and fix that. Bring up the bad to match the good, don't bring down the good to match the bad. Create extensive detail on everything.


I agree. When doing research on old events, what I've seen looking through 50-year old magazines like Time and Television is quite different than what history books have recorded. Paramount's first television network, the old Paramount Television Network (1949-1953), for example, was completely written out of history. You miss those things reading condensed versions from 40 or 50 years later.
GlassBeadGame
QUOTE(Firsfron of Ronchester @ Tue 17th July 2007, 2:23am) *

QUOTE(everyking @ Tue 17th July 2007, 7:23am) *

The thing about "recentism" is that when you record things really well as they're happening, you can get a really great depth of coverage that becomes more difficult to match as time passes. It's like telling some athlete with a lot of potential to wait until he's 30 or 40 to get serious about the sport. You record it now, people can read it and benefit from it now, and long past the point when it's guilty of some make-believe sin for being recent, it will become great, detailed history. The article gets unbalanced due to current events? Blame it on the inadequate coverage of the past and fix that. Bring up the bad to match the good, don't bring down the good to match the bad. Create extensive detail on everything.


I agree. When doing research on old events, what I've seen looking through 50-year old magazines like Time and Television is quite different than what history books have recorded. Paramount's first television network, the old Paramount Television Network (1949-1953), for example, was completely written out of history. You miss those things reading condensed versions from 40 or 50 years later.


Nobody is recording things "really well as they are happening." They are slapping cut and paste bits of information together in manner without cohesion or perspective. It doesn't have a "neutral point of view" it has the point of view of a group of people that all want their own two cent included without bothering to come to any agreement about what they want to say.

Wikidiots can't balance the articles with backfill about events that occurred more than say 20 years ago. I am talking about the type of "editors" (a ridiculously self-aggrandizing term) that generated the crap on the recent SS disclosure in the Grass article. There are a few real writers not yet driven from the project and this doesn't apply to them. Wikidiots are incompetent with printed media. The don't know how to use archives and libraries. They might come into contact with a few magazines in Gran-mommies attic if they wander out of their basement dwellings but that's the limit of the contact.

The idea that WP is somehow self-correcting in this matter is wrong.


Somey
As I see it, the key thing here is sensationalism. It's one thing to document changes or developments in an long-term, ongoing situation - the life of an organization, a person, or the rise and decline of sociopolitical movements and so forth - but quite another to have everyone jumping all over each other to get the latest up-to-the-minute detail in about someone on a shooting spree, a terrorist attack, or a shocking celebrity divorce. Wikipedia's setup is almost ideal for the one, but miserably wrong for the other.

I'd also have to conclude that it's unrealistic to think that articles about older, pre-Wikipedia events are going to be, or even should be, expanded to the point where they're comparable to those about things that have taken place since, say, 2003-2004, when Wikipedia started to take off. An encyclopedia isn't supposed to be exhaustive, and the folks over at ED don't use the acronym "TL;DR" just for a joke... There's an ideal length for every article, and finding that length used to be the domain of experienced professional encyclopedists. On WP, it's the domain of whoever happens to come along.

Increased use of sub-pages or off-wiki article development would be a good thing, IMO, but people don't get the same level of instant gratification that way. So you rarely see that, unfortunately.
Firsfron of Ronchester
QUOTE(Somey @ Tue 17th July 2007, 4:22pm) *

An encyclopedia isn't supposed to be exhaustive, and the folks over at ED don't use the acronym "TL;DR" just for a joke... There's an ideal length for every article, and finding that length used to be the domain of experienced professional encyclopedists. On WP, it's the domain of whoever happens to come along.


But the experienced professional encyclopedists have often done a poor job in determining the ideal length for an article, Somey. My copy of World Book, for example, has just one short paragraph (65 words) on the District of Keewatin, which had existed for over 100 years when the article was written: its history was summed up in two sentences. There are hundreds if not thousands of other examples which could be given in the World Book; I'm not sure which paper encyclopedia you use, but you can probably find many examples in yours, too.

QUOTE

Increased use of sub-pages or off-wiki article development would be a good thing, IMO, but people don't get the same level of instant gratification that way. So you rarely see that, unfortunately.


What is off-wiki article development, Somey? Wikipedia contributors starting their own web-sites, or...?
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