I was looking around Wikipedia and stumbled upon an edit dispute in which a bossy admin had decided to harass another editor, trying to get them banned, so as to win a lame-assed edit war.
How often have we seen this? Is the administrator completely clueless? Or are they trying to pervert truth?
The article is not particularly controversial, nor is it of great importance to the world community. It is about pop singer Nelly Furtado and the specific question is whether she is "Canadian, born to Portugese immigrants" or "Portugese Canadian".
A Brazillian editor called Opinoso, who like most Brazillians speaks Portugese and has limited command of English, decided to innocuously include that Nelly Furtado is of Portugese descent.
However, this led to Wikipedia administrator Yamla deciding to revert Opinoso not once, not twice, but three times.
Isn't there some rule about that? Oh yeah, Wikipedia's 3 Revert Rule. "An editor must not perform more than three reverts, in whole or in part, on a single page within a 24-hour period."
So surely Yamla is going to be blocked for 24 hours, right?
Well, Yamla has already thought of that, and has devised a trick to get away with it.
See, Yamla has written to Opinoso accusing him of vandalism and furthermore insisted that Opinoso's inclusion of Nelly Furtado as someone of Portugese descent is somehow vandalism (sorry, but isn't vandalism wiping a page or adding deliberately false information?) He refers to Wikipedia's Manual of Style (biographies) to justify this claim. Although he doesn't specify (which certainly doesn't help Opinoso out), presumably he is referring to nationality, which says:
"Nationality (In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable. Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.)"
So how is it vandalism in saying that Nelly Furtado is Portugese Canadian? Oh, that's right, because Yamla believes that Nelly Furtado only holds Canadian citizenship.
I am sure that Yamla has checked this out, right? I mean he wouldn't be crapping on, abusing the 3 Revert Rule, and threatening to ban someone without checking his facts, would he? Certainly not an administrator, surely?
See, according to Opinoso, Nelly Furtado actually holds Portuguese citizenship. If Opinoso is right, not only is it not vandalism, but it is actually the correct form of the article, and indeed Yamla is doing the wrong thing by removing it. Certainly, the fact that Opinoso, who at least speaks Portugese (coming from Brazil, where that is the primary language), would know more than Yamla about the topic, you would think? If Opinoso is wrong, it is an edit war. If he is right, then it belongs in the article. Either way, it isn't vandalism.
So let us see what a Google search on "Nelly Furtado" "Portuguese" comes up with, shall we? I mean surely Yamla wouldn't have done all of that without checking his facts, would he?
Whilst I wasn't able to source anywhere that says for certain that she is of Portuguese nationality, there were many sources that suggest that she considers herself to be Portuguese and furthermore is legally eligible to gain a Portuguese passport and to be considered legally to be Portuguese. It is unclear whether she has done this yet.
Perhaps Opinoso is wrong, perhaps he is right. It is a debatable issue. Perhaps indeed he should be told that his version needs more verification and more argument. And perhaps it does.
But to be told that adding something which appears to be true is vandalism, and threatened to be banned for it, that is something quite different.
Full Version: Nelly Furtado
I think in general it is a bad idea to include ethnic or religious identity in the header unless that identity is fundemental to why they are/were notable. If Nelly Furtado were to later speak more openly about feeling equally Portuguese and Canadian and perhaps if she went to live in Portugal there might be a case to describe her as Portuguese-Canadian.
QUOTE(jorge @ Wed 22nd August 2007, 2:31am) 
I think in general it is a bad idea to include ethnic or religious identity in the header unless that identity is fundemental to why they are/were notable. If Nelly Furtado were to later speak more openly about feeling equally Portuguese and Canadian and perhaps if she went to live in Portugal there might be a case to describe her as Portuguese-Canadian.
Will this do from Rolling Stone?
*Nelly Furtado, who sings two Portuguese-language songs on her pop debut, Whoa, Nelly!, has plans to release an entire album in her second tongue....
*Furtado's very first public performance was at the Portugal Day Celebration in her native Victoria, British Columbia....
*In her teens, she started playing in a Portuguese marching band in the evenings....
*That indicated to me that, if I wanted, I could have a career as a Portuguese artist, as well. And that meant a lot to me because, since I was younger, I always wanted to be really popular in Portugal. That was all that really mattered to me, because I do eventually have goals to move there. I really, really connect with Portugal a lot....
etc... etc...
QUOTE(blissyu2 @ Tue 21st August 2007, 6:14pm)
I was looking around Wikipedia and stumbled upon an edit dispute in which a bossy admin had decided to harass another editor, trying to get them banned, so as to win a lame-assed edit war.
How often have we seen this? Is the administrator completely clueless? Or are they trying to pervert truth?
The article is not particularly controversial, nor is it of great importance to the world community. It is about pop singer Nelly Furtado and the specific question is whether she is "Canadian, born to Portugese immigrants" or "Portugese Canadian".
A Brazillian editor called Opinoso, who like most Brazillians speaks Portugese and has limited command of English, decided to innocuously include that Nelly Furtado is of Portugese descent.
However, this led to Wikipedia administrator Yamla deciding to revert Opinoso not once, not twice, but three times.
Isn't there some rule about that? Oh yeah, Wikipedia's 3 Revert Rule. "An editor must not perform more than three reverts, in whole or in part, on a single page within a 24-hour period."
So surely Yamla is going to be blocked for 24 hours, right?
Well, Yamla has already thought of that, and has devised a trick to get away with it.
See, Yamla has written to Opinoso accusing him of vandalism and furthermore insisted that Opinoso's inclusion of Nelly Furtado as someone of Portugese descent is somehow vandalism (sorry, but isn't vandalism wiping a page or adding deliberately false information?) He refers to Wikipedia's Manual of Style (biographies) to justify this claim. Although he doesn't specify (which certainly doesn't help Opinoso out), presumably he is referring to nationality, which says:
"Nationality (In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable. Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.)"
So how is it vandalism in saying that Nelly Furtado is Portugese Canadian? Oh, that's right, because Yamla believes that Nelly Furtado only holds Canadian citizenship.
I am sure that Yamla has checked this out, right? I mean he wouldn't be crapping on, abusing the 3 Revert Rule, and threatening to ban someone without checking his facts, would he? Certainly not an administrator, surely?
See, according to Opinoso, Nelly Furtado actually holds Portuguese citizenship. If Opinoso is right, not only is it not vandalism, but it is actually the correct form of the article, and indeed Yamla is doing the wrong thing by removing it. Certainly, the fact that Opinoso, who at least speaks Portugese (coming from Brazil, where that is the primary language), would know more than Yamla about the topic, you would think? If Opinoso is wrong, it is an edit war. If he is right, then it belongs in the article. Either way, it isn't vandalism.
So let us see what a Google search on "Nelly Furtado" "Portuguese" comes up with, shall we? I mean surely Yamla wouldn't have done all of that without checking his facts, would he?
Whilst I wasn't able to source anywhere that says for certain that she is of Portuguese nationality, there were many sources that suggest that she considers herself to be Portuguese and furthermore is legally eligible to gain a Portuguese passport and to be considered legally to be Portuguese. It is unclear whether she has done this yet.
Perhaps Opinoso is wrong, perhaps he is right. It is a debatable issue. Perhaps indeed he should be told that his version needs more verification and more argument. And perhaps it does.
But to be told that adding something which appears to be true is vandalism, and threatened to be banned for it, that is something quite different.
As Eric Bogle says, I ask meself the same question.
Both of her parents were born in Portugal, and are Portuguese nationals. According to Portuguese law, she can claim Portuguese nationality if she wished to.
However, it is unclear whether she has done this already.
As they say, she regularly performs in Portuguese (also occasionally in Spanish apparently) and can speak Portuguese fluently, and has plans to release an album that will only be released in Portuguese.
This in itself isn't enough to confirm it absolutely, but it gives a very big hint.
Anyway, it may have been safer not to have listed it for the time being, or alternatively to have listed something else that said more explicitly some of the confirmed facts (e.g. she can claim Portuguese nationality based on both of her parents being born there) and then leave the final statement, that she IS a Portuguese national until you have absolute confirmation.
But calling someone a vandal because they stated as fact something which is debatably true is a bad thing to do.
However, it is unclear whether she has done this already.
As they say, she regularly performs in Portuguese (also occasionally in Spanish apparently) and can speak Portuguese fluently, and has plans to release an album that will only be released in Portuguese.
This in itself isn't enough to confirm it absolutely, but it gives a very big hint.
Anyway, it may have been safer not to have listed it for the time being, or alternatively to have listed something else that said more explicitly some of the confirmed facts (e.g. she can claim Portuguese nationality based on both of her parents being born there) and then leave the final statement, that she IS a Portuguese national until you have absolute confirmation.
But calling someone a vandal because they stated as fact something which is debatably true is a bad thing to do.
Update: Apparently Jester777 has finally become convinced that Opinoso was right all along. So now they are saying that she is Canadian but holds Portuguese citizenship:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=152864279
But isn't that the same thing as saying that she is Portuguese Canadian? No, not at all. This way they use slightly different wording, and back up their wonderful admin Yamla, to make sure that he doesn't have to suffer an ugly 3RR block for his edits, nor does he have to answer to his threats against Opinoso.
Good to see that admins get treated in exactly the same way as anyone else.
Indeed it seems that Portuguese nationality law states explicitly that Nelly Furtado is Portuguese purely because her parents were born there. Wikipedia's own article agrees:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_nationality_law
No further proof required, Opinoso was right.
Wait. Is Yamla apologising? Blocking himself for 24 hours? Saying sorry for getting rid of Zordrac's e-mail priveleges over it? Sorry for being wrong on so many levels?
Nup. Of course not. He's an administrator, and the rest of you are just worthless pond scum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=152864279
But isn't that the same thing as saying that she is Portuguese Canadian? No, not at all. This way they use slightly different wording, and back up their wonderful admin Yamla, to make sure that he doesn't have to suffer an ugly 3RR block for his edits, nor does he have to answer to his threats against Opinoso.
Good to see that admins get treated in exactly the same way as anyone else.
Indeed it seems that Portuguese nationality law states explicitly that Nelly Furtado is Portuguese purely because her parents were born there. Wikipedia's own article agrees:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_nationality_law
No further proof required, Opinoso was right.
Wait. Is Yamla apologising? Blocking himself for 24 hours? Saying sorry for getting rid of Zordrac's e-mail priveleges over it? Sorry for being wrong on so many levels?
Nup. Of course not. He's an administrator, and the rest of you are just worthless pond scum.
But wait, there's still more!
Yamla decided to put the dreaded {{fact}} tag next to the citizenship bit, to justify his stance. Yet its already proven:
1. Both of her parents were definitely born in Portugal
2. Per Portuguese law, anyone whose parents were born in Portugal is a Portuguese citizen.
Therefore she is, without question, a Portuguese citizen.
However, thanks to Yamla banning everyone who disagrees with him, and threatening the others that he can't immediately justify banning (don't worry, he'll get to them later, even if he has to scour the earth to find someone to accuse him of being a sock puppet of).
Of course, Yamla just wanted to point out that he was being a good person, not harassing users at all, and that he was just following the rules.
This was enough to "convince" Jester777 to give in to Yamla's demands. I mean, he doesn't want to end up on the ban pile, does he?
Remember folks, that if your favourite controlled article is getting ruined by pesky things like facts and accuracy that slant it in the wrong direction, just pull a banhammer on them! You don't need to ban EVERYONE - just ban one (as a sockpuppet of course, so that it doesn't look like you're banning them with a conflict of interest), threaten another, and then lightly prod another, and all of a sudden everyone is kissing up to you, and suddenly the article is yours!
Congratulations Yamla, you are the new owner of a brand spanking new Nelly Furtado article.
This doesn't mean that Nelly Furtado will go out with you, speak to you, or do anything other than spit in your eyes and kick you in the nuts, however.
Yamla decided to put the dreaded {{fact}} tag next to the citizenship bit, to justify his stance. Yet its already proven:
1. Both of her parents were definitely born in Portugal
2. Per Portuguese law, anyone whose parents were born in Portugal is a Portuguese citizen.
Therefore she is, without question, a Portuguese citizen.
However, thanks to Yamla banning everyone who disagrees with him, and threatening the others that he can't immediately justify banning (don't worry, he'll get to them later, even if he has to scour the earth to find someone to accuse him of being a sock puppet of).
Of course, Yamla just wanted to point out that he was being a good person, not harassing users at all, and that he was just following the rules.
This was enough to "convince" Jester777 to give in to Yamla's demands. I mean, he doesn't want to end up on the ban pile, does he?
Remember folks, that if your favourite controlled article is getting ruined by pesky things like facts and accuracy that slant it in the wrong direction, just pull a banhammer on them! You don't need to ban EVERYONE - just ban one (as a sockpuppet of course, so that it doesn't look like you're banning them with a conflict of interest), threaten another, and then lightly prod another, and all of a sudden everyone is kissing up to you, and suddenly the article is yours!
Congratulations Yamla, you are the new owner of a brand spanking new Nelly Furtado article.
This doesn't mean that Nelly Furtado will go out with you, speak to you, or do anything other than spit in your eyes and kick you in the nuts, however.
QUOTE(blissyu2 @ Wed 22nd August 2007, 5:48pm)
This doesn't mean that Nelly Furtado will go out with you, speak to you, or do anything other than spit in your eyes and kick you in the nuts, however.
I'd pay good money for that.
My opinion
''she is Canadian but holds Portuguese citizenship'' is a wrog thing to place in the lead because her Portuguese citizenship does not have a major place in her notability, however, I think her descent is important as opposed to her Portuguese citizenship. This is because she identify herself with the Portuguese and have songs in Portuguese language. If her heritage has a place in her work, then it is OK to put it in the intro, but her Portuguese citizenship itself is not justified there.
''she is Canadian but holds Portuguese citizenship'' is a wrog thing to place in the lead because her Portuguese citizenship does not have a major place in her notability, however, I think her descent is important as opposed to her Portuguese citizenship. This is because she identify herself with the Portuguese and have songs in Portuguese language. If her heritage has a place in her work, then it is OK to put it in the intro, but her Portuguese citizenship itself is not justified there.
I think it should say "Portuguese Canadian"
Like how Michael Chang is "Chinese American"
It is a standard way to describe people of one racial/national descent but who live in a different country.
Like how Michael Chang is "Chinese American"
It is a standard way to describe people of one racial/national descent but who live in a different country.
Possibly a coincidence, but List of Portuguese Americans is on AfD.
QUOTE(guy @ Thu 23rd August 2007, 6:13am)
Someone is mass-AFDing all of the lists of people by joint national descent.
She's also Portuguese Canadian, not American.
Actually I can see why Jester7777 is so compliant. After all, he's already been in trouble for trying to include references to Nelly Furtado being a bisexual:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=134001966
Including links such as this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=143676213
Which was removed on him:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=143775996
I think Jester7777 is being very careful not to get banned.
See how valuable it is to threaten people? They don't want to get banned, so all of a sudden they are your best friends.
Jester7777, if you read this, you'd be welcomed here. But if you said your Wikipedia username, I can bet that you'd get banned for posting here. So pick a new name.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=134001966
Including links such as this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=143676213
Which was removed on him:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=143775996
I think Jester7777 is being very careful not to get banned.
See how valuable it is to threaten people? They don't want to get banned, so all of a sudden they are your best friends.
Jester7777, if you read this, you'd be welcomed here. But if you said your Wikipedia username, I can bet that you'd get banned for posting here. So pick a new name.
A few updates here:
1) Opinoso made another change to the Nelly Furtado article, highlighting that he has proof (a forum site) that Nelly Furtado is Portuguese Canadian:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=152987404
2) Yamla, whilst admitting (reluctantly) that he was totally wrong, has now tried to insist that he was right:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=152947288
3) After seeing the evidence that Opinoso submitted, Yamla has now said that he "won't disagree with it further", yet at the same time is still trying to find some way to say he is right:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=152996439
4) Yamla has explained why he had banned Eden Tate as my sock puppet - apparently because I had written to him about his abuse of the Nelly Furtado article. This is apparently evidence enough for him:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=152983826
5) Eden Tate has requested to be unblocked. Apparently he is actually in Australia. This is indeed a surprise to me. But I am going to say that by Wikipedia standards, that's easily enough, mate. I mean they will just assume that I forked out the extra money for a 2nd ISP, or heck why not a 3rd, 4th and 5th too. I mean they are only like $300 setup fee, $70 per month, who can't afford that? Or maybe I'm an elite hacker who can do it all without paying extra charges? Sorry mate, but your goose is cooked:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=113237091
6) I made a page on Encyclopedia Dramatica about it. The whole thing just seemed so ED, and tough luck I think he deserves it:
http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Yamla
1) Opinoso made another change to the Nelly Furtado article, highlighting that he has proof (a forum site) that Nelly Furtado is Portuguese Canadian:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=152987404
2) Yamla, whilst admitting (reluctantly) that he was totally wrong, has now tried to insist that he was right:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=152947288
3) After seeing the evidence that Opinoso submitted, Yamla has now said that he "won't disagree with it further", yet at the same time is still trying to find some way to say he is right:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=152996439
4) Yamla has explained why he had banned Eden Tate as my sock puppet - apparently because I had written to him about his abuse of the Nelly Furtado article. This is apparently evidence enough for him:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=152983826
5) Eden Tate has requested to be unblocked. Apparently he is actually in Australia. This is indeed a surprise to me. But I am going to say that by Wikipedia standards, that's easily enough, mate. I mean they will just assume that I forked out the extra money for a 2nd ISP, or heck why not a 3rd, 4th and 5th too. I mean they are only like $300 setup fee, $70 per month, who can't afford that? Or maybe I'm an elite hacker who can do it all without paying extra charges? Sorry mate, but your goose is cooked:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=113237091
6) I made a page on Encyclopedia Dramatica about it. The whole thing just seemed so ED, and tough luck I think he deserves it:
http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Yamla
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.