Following Moulton's comment that he was in contact with Durova by email - that suddenly came to an abrupt halt - I want to test a little theory that I have had in the back of my mind for a little while; how many Wikipedians that read/use this board have received an email from Durova (or any of the Cabal) just the once (or a very few times) - especially if it commented on a situation or asked a question that could easily have been done on a talkpage? I have received such an email...
I am no internet/computer expert - but my brother is. I have been told that there is software available that can obtain the underlying ip from emails. An alternative to Checkuser, as long as you can get an email...?
Full Version: Emails from Durova
If you view the headers on an E-Mail it typically shows the IP of origin. (G-Mail is a notable exception. Durova uses G-Mail.)
QUOTE(LessHorrid vanU @ Fri 21st December 2007, 9:14pm) 
I have been told that there is software available that can obtain the underlying ip from emails. An alternative to Checkuser, as long as you can get an email...?
Some e-mail systems, notably Gmail, don't disclose the originating IP. By a strange coincidence, most admins use Gmail.
QUOTE(LessHorrid vanU @ Fri 21st December 2007, 9:14pm)
Following Moulton's comment that he was in contact with Durova by email - that suddenly came to an abrupt halt - I want to test a little theory that I have had in the back of my mind for a little while; how many Wikipedians that read/use this board have received an email from Durova (or any of the Cabal) just the once (or a very few times) - especially if it commented on a situation or asked a question that could easily have been done on a talkpage? I have received such an email...
I am no internet/computer expert - but my brother is. I have been told that there is software available that can obtain the underlying ip from emails. An alternative to Checkuser, as long as you can get an email...?
There are many ways to do an informal check user on someone. Emails work okay, images work great even if they are just embedded in WR.
QUOTE(LessHorrid vanU @ Fri 21st December 2007, 9:14pm)
Following Moulton's comment that he was in contact with Durova by email - that suddenly came to an abrupt halt - I want to test a little theory that I have had in the back of my mind for a little while; how many Wikipedians that read/use this board have received an email from Durova (or any of the Cabal) just the once (or a very few times) - especially if it commented on a situation or asked a question that could easily have been done on a talkpage? I have received such an email...
I am no internet/computer expert - but my brother is. I have been told that there is software available that can obtain the underlying ip from emails. An alternative to Checkuser, as long as you can get an email...?
Why would one desire to geolocate a wikipedia editor?
O
Uh, forgive me for asking the obvious question: Why would anyone want to know Durova's IP address? We know her name, and that she lives in the San Diego area...?
I would have to assume that she'd never use non-Gmail addresses to browbeat people. As for sockpuppeting, or having a member account here on WR, she'd almost certainly be using Tor proxies for something like that, right? Or are we assuming that her general tendency towards incompetence combined with overconfidence extends to IP address usage too?
I would have to assume that she'd never use non-Gmail addresses to browbeat people. As for sockpuppeting, or having a member account here on WR, she'd almost certainly be using Tor proxies for something like that, right? Or are we assuming that her general tendency towards incompetence combined with overconfidence extends to IP address usage too?
One reason that comes to mind is the reason Durova put forward -- to match up a suspected sock puppet with an editor known by another moniker.
QUOTE(Oracle @ Fri 21st December 2007, 3:48pm)
Why would one desire to geolocate a wikipedia editor?
I think what they're saying is that if you got a nasty e-mail from someone, and you suspected it was, say, Durova using a throwaway free-mail address, it might help you eliminate other possibilities if you could geolocate the IP to a particular city or region. Hopefully nobody is advocating that attempts be made to physically locate people, at least those who haven't engaged in such behavior.
What I'm saying is that people doing real "harassment" aren't going to be that careless when something like Tor is available. Just as I would hope that people who are under legitimate threat of same would also take advantage of Tor, where appropriate.
QUOTE(Moulton @ Fri 21st December 2007, 9:19pm)
If you view the headers on an E-Mail it typically shows the IP of origin. (G-Mail is a notable exception. Durova uses G-Mail.)
Well, I told you I am not that net savvy...
Still, the theory holds that there is a suspicion that unsolicited emails that need a reply (or the well used request by certain admins when in dispute with an editor, "Please email me.") are a way of obtaining ip addys that might be matched with the contributions of other non-registered accounts.I would still like to see if there are others who have received such mails.
I've been contacted once or twice by JzG on an account of mine about fairly trivial things that could have been asked on a talk page. I found it quite odd that he preferred email when there was no obvious reason to use it.
If he was using it to get my IP he was disappointed; I use Gmail.
If he was using it to get my IP he was disappointed; I use Gmail.
QUOTE(Oracle @ Fri 21st December 2007, 2:48pm)
Why would one desire to geolocate a wikipedia editor?
O
Why is a WHOIS link attached to every IP user's page? Geolocating a Wikipedia editor isn't a new concept.
QUOTE(Firsfron of Ronchester @ Fri 21st December 2007, 10:04pm)
QUOTE(Oracle @ Fri 21st December 2007, 2:48pm)
Why would one desire to geolocate a wikipedia editor?
O
Why is a WHOIS link attached to every IP user's page? Geolocating a Wikipedia editor isn't a new concept.
I am not referring to ip editors, I am referring to psuedo-anonymous registered editors - the ones that Wikipedia needs the services of a checkuser to establish the underlying ip (unless you manage to get an email).
QUOTE(Firsfron of Ronchester @ Fri 21st December 2007, 10:04pm)
QUOTE(Oracle @ Fri 21st December 2007, 2:48pm)
Why would one desire to geolocate a wikipedia editor?
O
Why is a WHOIS link attached to every IP user's page? Geolocating a Wikipedia editor isn't a new concept.
Monsieur Somer parle mon attention au sujet de ce meilleur qui I.
Just wanted to respectfully caution regarding the application of this old concept.
O
QUOTE(Oracle @ Fri 21st December 2007, 10:16pm)
Just wanted to respectfully caution regarding the application of this old concept.
Caution. Caution is good.
QUOTE(AB @ Fri 21st December 2007, 10:24pm)
QUOTE(Oracle @ Fri 21st December 2007, 10:16pm)
Just wanted to respectfully caution regarding the application of this old concept.
Caution. Caution is good.
Seriously, what would you do if, hypothetically speaking, someone were to
explain exactly how s/he intended to obtain your identity, and threaten to
find you and make you pay if you did not meet certain conditions, like, oh,
say, deleting all your posts from WR and never commenting on WP anywhere
ever again?
Oh I don't know. Perhaps I might, now this is hypothetical, might hope this person were in the same jurisdiction as I am in, and let the folks in my jurisdiction who are in charge of law enforcement do the geolocation. In my jurisdiction, the scenario your describe would not be legal. Of course, this is all hypothetical.
O
QUOTE(Poetlister @ Fri 21st December 2007, 4:19pm)
QUOTE(LessHorrid vanU @ Fri 21st December 2007, 9:14pm)
I have been told that there is software available that can obtain the underlying ip from emails. An alternative to Checkuser, as long as you can get an email...?
Some e-mail systems, notably Gmail, don't disclose the originating IP. By a strange coincidence, most admins use Gmail.
Exactly. As long as you use Gmail's site, it won't stamp the e-mail with an originating IP.
I don't think Durova uses email to garner IPs.
I think she uses emails to create "evidence of harassment".
What she does: she talks a bit, then she suddenly gets really weird on the other party, tells them to stop emailing her, and when they send the inevitable, normal email saying "hey, what is up and why did you send that email", she can run back and squeal harassment, like the lonely emotionally stunted-at-schoolgirl-age person she is.
Then she emails the "evidence of harassment" to as many people as possible. No one gives a whit, so the "evidence" is taken seriously (because no one wants to read this ridiculously large pack of evidence). And until the "!!" debacle, no one was wise to her little dick-y games. And whoeer she'd thus targeted was DOOMED.
I know three people she's done that to. Which probably means she's done it to 50 people.
I've pondered whether she does this out of intentional viciousness. But really, I think she needs attention so badly, and she's paranoid anyways, so she takes things and completely blows them out of proportion. And she winds up creating all sorts of problems for people. In the end, herself, of course, but there are tons of bodies strewn in the wake of her nutty hobby.
If she had a real life, and a real family, none of this would be an issue, of course. Durova is incredibly lonely.
I think she uses emails to create "evidence of harassment".
What she does: she talks a bit, then she suddenly gets really weird on the other party, tells them to stop emailing her, and when they send the inevitable, normal email saying "hey, what is up and why did you send that email", she can run back and squeal harassment, like the lonely emotionally stunted-at-schoolgirl-age person she is.
Then she emails the "evidence of harassment" to as many people as possible. No one gives a whit, so the "evidence" is taken seriously (because no one wants to read this ridiculously large pack of evidence). And until the "!!" debacle, no one was wise to her little dick-y games. And whoeer she'd thus targeted was DOOMED.
I know three people she's done that to. Which probably means she's done it to 50 people.
I've pondered whether she does this out of intentional viciousness. But really, I think she needs attention so badly, and she's paranoid anyways, so she takes things and completely blows them out of proportion. And she winds up creating all sorts of problems for people. In the end, herself, of course, but there are tons of bodies strewn in the wake of her nutty hobby.
If she had a real life, and a real family, none of this would be an issue, of course. Durova is incredibly lonely.
QUOTE(Poetlister @ Fri 21st December 2007, 3:19pm)
QUOTE(LessHorrid vanU @ Fri 21st December 2007, 9:14pm)
I have been told that there is software available that can obtain the underlying ip from emails. An alternative to Checkuser, as long as you can get an email...?
Some e-mail systems, notably Gmail, don't disclose the originating IP. By a strange coincidence, most admins use Gmail.
Using Gmail is just good sense. For example, if you are writing from work, and you want your email being sent to be REALLY private, so some whack job can't randomly decide to hassle you via your employer (happens often). Or maybe you've been emailing some person on ebay who might be an axe murderer and decide to "off" you, because the DVD-ROM you sold them was the wrong color.
Of course, if you are an abusive administrator, it makes even more sense. But many abusive administrators use their real names, and have no qualms about behaving badly. This is my main argument against the "real names will solve everything" theory.
I'm sure Durova hasn't posted here or anything from her home IP. Has anyone ever seen evidence of incompetence from her, other than the social variety? She does work in SEO after all; she must have some technical knowledge, even if she comes off as just a paranoid biatch.
QUOTE(Miltopia @ Tue 25th December 2007, 2:13am)
I'm sure Durova hasn't posted here or anything from her home IP. Has anyone ever seen evidence of incompetence from her, other than the social variety? She does work in SEO after all; she must have some technical knowledge, even if she comes off as just a paranoid biatch.
Pfff. Durova didnt work in SEO. She just got off on writing articles about how they should kiss her feet. I'd guess she works in a computer company which does naval or military contracts.
Incompetent. Rofl. All over. And over and over. Please.
All on top of being a super hysteric.
Is there any estimate of how many duff blocks Durova has been responsible for?
QUOTE(Yehudi @ Tue 25th December 2007, 7:48am)
Is there any estimate of how many duff blocks Durova has been responsible for?
She's blocked Hilary Duff and her sister Haylie Duff?
QUOTE(dtobias @ Tue 25th December 2007, 1:22pm)
Well look at Hilary. Have you ever seen anyone who looks more like a Runcorn sock?
What's that big black area on her dress? Is it where they censored out a link to an attack site?
QUOTE(Poetlister @ Tue 25th December 2007, 11:24am)
Well look at Hilary. Have you ever seen anyone who looks more like a Runcorn sock?
She actually resembles Taxwoman just a bit. Taxwoman might be prettier, actually. And probably has a charming British accent too.
QUOTE(dtobias @ Tue 25th December 2007, 12:10pm)
What's that big black area on her dress? Is it where they censored out a link to an attack site?
Yes, it was a little note saying "I love Wikipedia Review" which was necessarily blotted out.
"Out damned spot" (Shakespeare)
QUOTE(Disillusioned Lackey @ Tue 25th December 2007, 2:16pm)
"Out damned spot" (Shakespeare)
"Run, Spot, Run!" (Dick & Jane)
Durova has sent me an E-Mail asking me to post this exchange.. on her Meta-Wiki talk page.
Update:
Durova has posted a rant about the above at her blog, to which I responded:
QUOTE(Durova's Meta-Wiki Talk Page)
There Is a Season, Turn, Turn...
Hi Durova,
On Independence Day, you weighed in on an ArbCom case thusly:
In view of your Independence Day Pledge, Durova, would you be willing to stand up for the unalienable right to present a defense with respect to the summary acts of Blueboy96, Toddst1, and other admins who rushed in on Flag Day to demonstrate their disdain of the Principles of Due Process and Accountability.
Moulton 11:51, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Hi Durova,
On Independence Day, you weighed in on an ArbCom case thusly:
QUOTE(Request for time)Request for time
Per my pledge to stand up on behalf of fair process for any and all Wikipedians, I respectfully request that the arbitrators refrain from voting on this case until all of the parties have had adequate time to present evidence. That is, at least one week from the opening date or if all of the named parties agree that they are ready for voting to commence sooner. Named parties who are ready to see this case voted upon may sign below. Durova Charge! 22:43, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
In view of your Independence Day Pledge, Durova, would you be willing to stand up for the unalienable right to present a defense with respect to the summary acts of Blueboy96, Toddst1, and other admins who rushed in on Flag Day to demonstrate their disdain of the Principles of Due Process and Accountability.
Moulton 11:51, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Moulton has taken a quote out of context applied it to a context where it was never intended. My pledge is to stand up for process at en:wiki arbitration, which I have been doing consistently for many months, and I'll do so as my own conscience dictates.
I have challenged him via e-mail to clarify that over on Wikipedia Review. Since he has also posted his misunderstanding over here, I am responding here as well. That is one of the downsides of leaping to inaccurate conclusions. Durova 17:52, 6 July 2008 (UTC)Oh come on, Durova. Surely you are not a hypocrite. If you believe in a principle, you apply it uniformly and not selectively.
As you wish, Durova, I will post on Wikipedia Review my view of your waffling on a disingenuously sanctimonious and insincere pledge.
Moulton 18:13, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Update:
Durova has posted a rant about the above at her blog, to which I responded:
QUOTE(Blogger Moulton at Durova's blog)
Do you deny that ArbCom mishandled my case? Sam Korn said so, as did many others.
Nor has there been any resolution of the case, which has festered unresolved for 10 months.
Nor has there been any resolution of the case, which has festered unresolved for 10 months.
Oh felgercarb!
QUOTE(Dzonatas @ Sun 6th July 2008, 3:40pm)
Oh felgercarb!
Heh. I had to look that one up. That's funny.
Meanwhile, back at Durova's blog...
QUOTE(Moulton's Continuing Responses to Durova)
Blogger Moulton said...
How is it unrelated, since it's all the same case, bouncing around from RfC to AN/I to ArbCom to AN to ArbCom a second time, ad infinitum, like a hot potato.
So I'll say it again, say it loud, say it clear, say it bold...
Durova, you are waffling on your avowed principles, in a disingenuously sanctimonious and insincere manner.
But I will give you credit for one thing. Unlike Filll, you courageously publish your critics' rejoinders on your blog.
12:53 PM
How is it unrelated, since it's all the same case, bouncing around from RfC to AN/I to ArbCom to AN to ArbCom a second time, ad infinitum, like a hot potato.
So I'll say it again, say it loud, say it clear, say it bold...
Durova, you are waffling on your avowed principles, in a disingenuously sanctimonious and insincere manner.
But I will give you credit for one thing. Unlike Filll, you courageously publish your critics' rejoinders on your blog.
12:53 PM
Update:
And another round...
QUOTE(Moulton's 3rd Rejoinder to Durova)
Blogger Moulton said...
Uffda.
Many months ago you let the WikiClique on ID intimidate you. No glory there, eh?
You don't seem to understand, Durova.
The failure of due process isn't about my case.
It's a systemic failure of which my unimportant case is buried in the noise.
No, I do not want you to take down this post.
But I would like your permission to quote it in current research into justice on Wikipedia.
1:19 PM
Uffda.
Many months ago you let the WikiClique on ID intimidate you. No glory there, eh?
You don't seem to understand, Durova.
The failure of due process isn't about my case.
It's a systemic failure of which my unimportant case is buried in the noise.
No, I do not want you to take down this post.
But I would like your permission to quote it in current research into justice on Wikipedia.
1:19 PM
The phun on Durova's blog goes on for while, and winds down thusly...
QUOTE(Durova's blog)
Durova said...
Actually they didn't intimidate me. I gnashed my teeth for other reasons.
You see, they had correctly followed flawed guidelines and procedures. I had been involved in the discussions on those flawed guidelines and procedures, and had been overruled by the consensus. While I sympathize with your situation, I cannot single out the "ID clique" for blame. They had not played a role in setting up those flawed processes.
1:29 PM
__________
Moulton said...
Oh, baloney. They gamed the system in a transparently corrupt and brazen manner.
After they got away with it a few times, with FerryLodge, Gnixon, and myself, they became increasingly emboldened, to the point where they are now taking on FT2 and ArbCom itself.
Now Jimbo has weighed in on the issue of Due Process on Wikipedia, a notion that some say is farcical at best and non-existent at worst.
And it's also an issue that not a few scholars have begun to study ever more closely.
1:44 PM
__________
Durova said...
For over a year now I have been seeking to build consensus toward a repair of the policies and processes that failed you. This was something I was working on months before I met you. If you proceeded in a quiet and decorous manner, then your instance would be an excellent example of how these systems went wrong.
1:47 PM
__________
Moulton said...
Mebbe. Mebbe not.
Who knows for sure?
What's interesting about my case is that the adversarial editors in the WikiClique on ID jumped on anything they could find to justify their Kristallnacht rampage of last Flag Day.
2:02 PM
__________
Durova said...
Well, actually I'm the one who knows for sure.
2:10 PM
__________
Moulton said...
Surely you are not gonna wait for a case in which the central character in the Kafkaesque nightmare is as blameless as Christ?
You might have to wait for the Second Coming if you require that much perfection.
2:23 PM
__________
Filll said...
This exchange is a perfect example of why I heavily edit and redact comments on my blog.
6:48 AM
__________
Moulton said...
This exchange is a perfect example of Emotional Semantics and Emotional Semiotics.
5:18 AM
Actually they didn't intimidate me. I gnashed my teeth for other reasons.
You see, they had correctly followed flawed guidelines and procedures. I had been involved in the discussions on those flawed guidelines and procedures, and had been overruled by the consensus. While I sympathize with your situation, I cannot single out the "ID clique" for blame. They had not played a role in setting up those flawed processes.
1:29 PM
__________
Moulton said...
Oh, baloney. They gamed the system in a transparently corrupt and brazen manner.
After they got away with it a few times, with FerryLodge, Gnixon, and myself, they became increasingly emboldened, to the point where they are now taking on FT2 and ArbCom itself.
Now Jimbo has weighed in on the issue of Due Process on Wikipedia, a notion that some say is farcical at best and non-existent at worst.
And it's also an issue that not a few scholars have begun to study ever more closely.
1:44 PM
__________
Durova said...
For over a year now I have been seeking to build consensus toward a repair of the policies and processes that failed you. This was something I was working on months before I met you. If you proceeded in a quiet and decorous manner, then your instance would be an excellent example of how these systems went wrong.
1:47 PM
__________
Moulton said...
Mebbe. Mebbe not.
Who knows for sure?
What's interesting about my case is that the adversarial editors in the WikiClique on ID jumped on anything they could find to justify their Kristallnacht rampage of last Flag Day.
2:02 PM
__________
Durova said...
Well, actually I'm the one who knows for sure.
2:10 PM
__________
Moulton said...
Surely you are not gonna wait for a case in which the central character in the Kafkaesque nightmare is as blameless as Christ?
You might have to wait for the Second Coming if you require that much perfection.
2:23 PM
__________
Filll said...
This exchange is a perfect example of why I heavily edit and redact comments on my blog.
6:48 AM
__________
Moulton said...
This exchange is a perfect example of Emotional Semantics and Emotional Semiotics.
5:18 AM
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