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thekohser
Okay, WTF is going on with this map labeled Eastern Europe?

FORUM Image

This map is actually being used in the article Music of Eastern Europe, which is itself a delightful little stub. The disaster that is that article seems to have started here, thanks to an idiotic edit by a Durova-lover admin who once indef blocked one of my socks (WikiGnosis).

Does the entire population of Wikipediots need a crash course in geography?

Greg
Derktar
Sorry for veering off about the article but personally I found it rather enlightening, the article consists of the following:

QUOTE
Eastern Europe is a populated geographical area.

Whew, my brain nearly exploded from the sheer amount of information on the page, although it seems to have been trimmed down from earlier versions. And to top it off the good old OR tag makes another appearance:

QUOTE
This article or section may contain original research or unverified claims.

They're right though, I mean do we really know whether Eastern Europe is actually populated?
thekohser
QUOTE(Derktar @ Mon 14th January 2008, 12:25am) *

They're right though, I mean do we really know whether Eastern Europe is actually populated?


Especially the "eastern" part of Eastern Europe, as the map shows! That's really uncharted territory, if you ask me. I think Napoleon himself tried to go there to see if it was populated, and just the weather alone decimated his expeditionary force.

I'm imagining a new article of the likes of "History of western Eurasia, including North Africa"... something to to tune of "Music of the easternmost east parts of Eastern western Eurasia, sans North Africa".*

Greg


* Tax, tags, and Crimea not included.
Firsfron of Ronchester
QUOTE(thekohser @ Sun 13th January 2008, 10:12pm) *

Okay, WTF is going on with this map labeled Eastern Europe?

Does the entire population of Wikipediots need a crash course in geography?

Greg


Come on, Greg. You know very well that Romania has always been one of the Western Bloc nations. wink.gif

I'll note they didn't even color in the Kaliningrad enclave of Russia, or the Crimean peninsula of Ukraine, so even parts of those countries are apparently part of Western Europe...
guy
QUOTE(Firsfron of Ronchester @ Mon 14th January 2008, 5:39am) *

I'll note they didn't even color in the Kaliningrad enclave of Russia, or the Crimean peninsula of Ukraine, so even parts of those countries are apparently part of Western Europe...

Not to mention the part of Turkey in Europe. Well, Turkey's in NATO, so it's as much part of Western Europe as say Canada.
Firsfron of Ronchester
QUOTE(guy @ Mon 14th January 2008, 3:15am) *


Not to mention the part of Turkey in Europe. Well, Turkey's in NATO, so it's as much part of Western Europe as say Canada.


The worst part, I think, is that much of Eastern Europe isn't even on that map.
cyofee
It seems to me that the map is derived from CIA's map of Eastern Europe - but notably lacking Crimea and some other areas.


I'm curious, how can one delete an image from Wikipedia when it's just... rubbish?
Peter Damian
QUOTE(thekohser @ Mon 14th January 2008, 5:12am) *

who once indef blocked ...



Thank you for pointing me in the direction of Wikignosis' talk page. It was a delight from beginning to end, but particularly the bits about Mao Kobayashi, and the Google news archive search. And also this

QUOTE
Decline reason: ""I hope that this page becomes the laughing-stock of the non-Wikipedia "real" world. I have no desire to work within such a dysfunctional community." Then there is no need to unblock you.


Self-fulfilling, no?
Moulton
Whoever posted that map should be severely sanctioned, in accordance with well-established Wikipedia policy on Crimea and Punishment.
thekohser
QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Mon 14th January 2008, 7:32am) *

QUOTE(thekohser @ Mon 14th January 2008, 5:12am) *

who once indef blocked ...



Thank you for pointing me in the direction of Wikignosis' talk page. It was a delight from beginning to end, but particularly the bits about Mao Kobayashi, and the Google news archive search. And also this

QUOTE
Decline reason: ""I hope that this page becomes the laughing-stock of the non-Wikipedia "real" world. I have no desire to work within such a dysfunctional community." Then there is no need to unblock you.


Self-fulfilling, no?


Peter, I'm glad you enjoyed WikiGnosis. That was one of my favorite forays into proving some points on Wikipedia. Durova "investigated" that account and determined that it was a sockpuppet of JB196 -- another failed investigation on her part. She refactored about 5 days later.

It was so delightful to see that Jimbo's statement that negative, unsourced personal information about any living persons should be removed on sight, actually carried no weight whatsoever within his community.

I especially liked the fact that a 15-year-old Japanese "naughty" model's sexy outfits were described in detail, with no attribution to sources; as well as the size of someone's tumor that was surgically removed (equally unsourced) was "non-surgically" reimplanted within that person's BLP on Wikipedia.

Swatjester particularly thought it important to restore the description, unsourced, of the Japanese teenager's sexy outfits.

WikiGnosis was a wonderful exercise in exposing the hypocrisy on Wikipedia, and I'm very proud of that sockpuppet.

Greg
Peter Damian
QUOTE(thekohser @ Mon 14th January 2008, 3:35pm) *

I'm very proud of that sockpuppet.


You have every reason to be proud, and it is equal in its own way to any of Giano's works (more like 'installation art'). Every one should read it. Indeed, has anyone taken in the job of WR archivist and curator (to include the Map of Europe, History of Western Eurasia, and other weird and wonderful exotica). This should not be lost to history.

And I'm still puzzling about how anyone could confuse a warning with a threat.
Moulton
WP admins are quite adept at conflating warnings, predictions, and threats, into self-fulfilling prophecies.
thekohser
QUOTE
...Surely we have another map of Eastern Europe somewhere...
-- Jimbo
guy
QUOTE
Some articles in Wikipedia need attention to be brought up to our usual standards? Yes, of course.--[[User:Jimbo Wales|Jimbo Wales]]
Peter Damian
Amazing. Let's post the whole exchange. It's our friend Russ Finley again - cruising for a block, I'll be bound.

QUOTE

Jimmy, what do you think of this map of Eastern Europe? Furthermore, which article about the Music of Eastern Europe do you prefer? The version of the article from March 2005, or the version from January 2008? I thought that Wikipedia is constantly improving. These examples have been discussed extensively on a site that more than a few Wikipedians have dismissed, labeling those sites as "full of banned trolls." These lousy examples of scholarship -- signaled on a site critical of Wikipedia -- have remained untouched for weeks, if not years. Is this failure to address problems brought to light on "bad" sites part of the WP:DENY campaign? - John Russ Finley (talk) 00:53, 21 January 2008 (UTC)


No, I think it is rather that no one has noticed the debates on that site who also felt qualified to improve the article. The article does suck, there's no denying that. But I am not sure what else you want me to say. Some articles in Wikipedia need attention to be brought up to our usual standards? Yes, of course.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:12, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
It is a very strange map. I do not understand what orange color is suppose to mean, probably Commonwealth of Independent States, but while Crimea is not the same color as the rest of Ukraine and Kaliningrad Oblast is not the same color as Russia is beyond me. Alex Bakharev (talk) 01:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree. Surely we have another map of Eastern Europe somewhere. But it is unclear to me whether this article even addresses a cognizable topic.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:12, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales"


So what is Wales saying here? People ought to go to WR to look for articles that need improving? LOL.
Peter Damian
A sort of thank you from Wales talk page:

QUOTE
Thank you. Glad to see it being addressed finally. I'll be keeping my eye on that "bad" site. It's been awfully useful in pointing out some glaring flaws with Wikipedia, another of which I'll comment about below. - John Russ Finley (talk) 02:47, 22 January 2008 (UTC)


For the 'comment about below' see my next post.
everyking
This is probably a political thing more than plain ignorance. POV pushers are continually rewriting the recent history of Eastern Europe (probably the single most POV infested topic area on WP), so it stands to reason they would try to redraw the geography as well.
Amarkov
Well, if you take the UN and CIA maps of Eastern Europe, removing anything which does not appear in both lists, that's the map you get. And that's probably viewed as a good way to do things on Wikipedia. After all, it's just checking sources against others!
thekohser
QUOTE(Amarkov @ Fri 25th January 2008, 1:27am) *

Well, if you take the UN and CIA maps of Eastern Europe, removing anything which does not appear in both lists, that's the map you get. And that's probably viewed as a good way to do things on Wikipedia. After all, it's just checking sources against others!


Links, please? Are you sure about that? What about the Crimean Peninsula?

Greg
Amarkov
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/th...book/index.html

http://unstats.un.org/unsd/methods/m49/m49regin.htm

The CIA map has Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova, and the Baltic states as part of "Eastern Europe", with the other countries you'd expect to see classified as central or southeastern. The UN definition extends slightly further, but the Baltic states are instead grouped with the UK and Nordic countries in "Northern Europe".

I realize that still doesn't explain where the Crimean peninsula went. I suspect someone who doesn't know geography thought it was an island...
thekohser
The CIA link doesn't go to any map, and even with searching the CIA site, I couldn't find a map of Eastern Europe.
Amarkov
If you go into the individual countries, there's a "Location" row in the list of information. I haven't been able to find a map either.
dogbiscuit
QUOTE(Amarkov @ Fri 25th January 2008, 9:50pm) *

If you go into the individual countries, there's a "Location" row in the list of information. I haven't been able to find a map either.


Might it require money???

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/ci...n%20Europe.html
thekohser
To facilitate the research of future scholars who will one day question why such a thing as Wikipedia was ever allowed to exist, I offer this archived capture of the Music of Eastern Europe page.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.