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Castle Rock
This is one of the stupidest things I have seen on Wikipedia. Since when did you not call a country by the official name that it chose? Apparently Myanmar was moved to Burma after the military junta's crackdown last year as some form of protest, clearly a blatant violation of NPOV and the height of wiki-arrogance. The talk-page is full of goofballs arguing that Burma gets more google-hits, so then shouldn't the Democratic Republic of the Congo article be moved to Congo then? Or saying that since the "people" use Burma, that should be the title, yeah fight the power.
The battle has started again with another survey.
For me User:172 sums it up best:
QUOTE
Support and speedy close: There is only one possible correct name for the article; and the name is Myanmar. The poll here is irrelevant. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a democracy. I have contributed to this site for five years; I have never been so disappointed. This site will lose its chances of graining professional credibility if users here demonstrate that an article about a nation-state can be completely hijacked by a handful of users canvassing for support with simplistic emotional appeals, ignoring or even falsifying the facts at hand. Users here have been claiming that Myanmar somehow is not an English name. That claim is is factually incorrect. It is an English transliteration. Some have been claiming Burma is the "common" English name. That claim is also factually incorrect. AP, UPI, Reuters, USA Today, the New York Times, and other major U.S. media outlets use Myanmar. In the UK the International Herald Tribune and the Globe and Mail use Myanmar. Britannica [12] uses Myanmar, as does Encarta and scores of other encyclopedias and almanacs. The reason is not that the editors of these publications support the military junta. Myanmar is more frequently used in the English-language media because professional media use standards that Wikipedia is trying to adopt, but failing to implement here. In referring to nation-states, professionally written media use the names that are formally legally adopted by states, and thus used in diplomatic exchanges. Hence, names like Kampuchea and Zaire were used in encyclopedias after their regimes had renamed their nations, regardless of the perceived domestic and international support for these regimes. 172 | Talk 02:39, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Kato
This dispute has been running for a long time. It used to be correct, then after the political strife last year, loons insisted the article revert to its colonial name Burma as the current regime apparently didn't meet Wikipedia's political ideals. All it needs now is for Jimbo to blank his user page in some "freedom of speech" protest and the deal will be sealed - Myanmar will henceforth be known as Burma.
Amarkov
Maybe we should just move the "United States" article to "America"?

Doing this kind of stuff makes sense when you're talking about a proper short form, as English speakers in general use the short forms of country names. It may or may not be reasonable to call the region Burma, but Myanmar is quite clearly the only proper short form of the name. If I remember correctly, there is a Wikipedia policy that says to use popular names over correct names, so it'll be an uphill battle on-wiki. But it's really clearly stupid.
dtobias
President Bush called it "Burma" in his State of the Union speech.
thekohser
QUOTE(dtobias @ Mon 28th January 2008, 9:57pm) *

President Bush called it "Burma" in his State of the Union speech.


All the more reason for a self-respecting publication to call it Myanmar.
Amarkov
Even if Gordon Brown or someone else had called it Burma, that really wouldn't justify having it at that title. Note that some people don't like calling the country Myanmar, of course. But that doesn't make the "real" name Burma, any more than the "real" name of the USSR was Russia.
Achromatic
QUOTE(dtobias @ Mon 28th January 2008, 6:57pm) *

President Bush called it "Burma" in his State of the Union speech.


Bush has a political barrow to push. Wikipedia doesn't - or shouldn't.
guy
There's a lot of inconsistency. They talk about the City of Derry but County Londonderry; they should use the same name for both.
jorge
QUOTE(guy @ Tue 29th January 2008, 10:28am) *

There's a lot of inconsistency. They talk about the City of Derry but County Londonderry; they should use the same name for both.

http://www.derrycity.gov.uk/about-organisation.htm

"Derry City Council"
dogbiscuit
QUOTE(jorge @ Tue 29th January 2008, 1:18pm) *

QUOTE(guy @ Tue 29th January 2008, 10:28am) *

There's a lot of inconsistency. They talk about the City of Derry but County Londonderry; they should use the same name for both.

http://www.derrycity.gov.uk/about-organisation.htm

"Derry City Council"


It is Northern Ireland, it is far more complicated than that. There seems to have been an accommodation, so it is best left.

Wikipedia sticking its nose into the complexities of Northern Irish politics is a good example of why it is very important not to make simplistic outside judgements. Northern Ireland may not be in the news these days, and things are infinitely better than they were, but not everyone is healed, grudges are held, and I wouldn't want to spark things off over a Wikipedia turf war.
dtobias
Should those old Burma Shave signs be retroactively re-designated as "Myanmar Shave" signs?
thekohser
QUOTE(dtobias @ Tue 29th January 2008, 8:32am) *

Should those old Burma Shave signs be retroactively re-designated as "Myanmar Shave" signs?


That would be a trademark violation, I think.


We know Der Jimbo
Has lots of stubble
But we won't rest
'Til 'pedia's rubble

Use Burma-Shave
Herschelkrustofsky
QUOTE(Castle Rock @ Mon 28th January 2008, 6:00pm) *

The battle has started again with another survey.
For me User:172 sums it up best:


The comment by User:172 is surprisingly sensible, and way out of character for 172. When the whole preposterous controversy began last fall, User:Jimbo Wales had this to say:

QUOTE
I find this discussion to be delightful, rational, kind, thoughtful, and respectful. And I want to thank everyone involved for handling the issue with sensitivity and thoughtfulness. It is a "borderline case" in the true sense of that word: there are good arguments for both sides, and it all seems somewhat balanced.
guy
The article on K??ln is actually called Cologne, which is the French name.
Cedric
FORUM Image


1st woman: BURMA!
2nd woman: Why did you say, "Burma"?
1st woman: I panicked.
Herschelkrustofsky
QUOTE(guy @ Tue 29th January 2008, 11:24am) *

The article on Köln is actually called Cologne, which is the French name.


Yes, but there is a difference between naming an article according to the most common English usage, and mis-naming an article in order to punish the uppity wogs.
guy
Undoubtedly the average man in the street or on the Clapham omnibus or wherever would be more familiar with Burma than Myanmar. I thought the point was that Myanmar was its official name. K??ln is the official name too. If we call it Cologne because that's the name most English (and American) people use, that applies equally to Burma.
Amarkov
QUOTE(guy @ Tue 29th January 2008, 2:32pm) *

Undoubtedly the average man in the street or on the Clapham omnibus or wherever would be more familiar with Burma than Myanmar. I thought the point was that Myanmar was its official name. Köln is the official name too. If we call it Cologne because that's the name most English (and American) people use, that applies equally to Burma.


It's not that simple. "Cologne" is an anglicization of the actual name. It's the same situation as Lisbon; the name in Portugese is actually "Lisboa", but us English speakers anglicize it.

Myanmar's actual name is this. It is translated as "Union of Myanmar"; in no way can you get "Burma" out of it. So we should use the anglicized form of the country's name, which is Myanmar.
Derktar
"You most likely know it as Myanmar, but it will always be Burma to me."
- J. Peterman
Piperdown
QUOTE(Cedric @ Tue 29th January 2008, 8:26pm) *

FORUM Image


1st woman: BURMA!
2nd woman: Why did you say, "Burma"?
1st woman: I panicked.


I'm betting that's Cleese's gams on the left and Graham's on the right. If Wikpedia was around in 1971 they would have made a skit or two out of it. In drag, with shrill voices.

My WP:AN block review reminded me of the Dead Parrot sketch.

QUOTE(Derktar @ Wed 30th January 2008, 12:09am) *

"You most likely know it as Myanmar, but it will always be Burma to me."
- J. Peterman


I'd buy that Urban Sombrero immediately after reading that. J. Peterman should be a Wikipedia personae of some witty editor.

Imagine the possibilities on the tourism sections of all those exotic country articles, or the articles on Men's adventure gear. And the flashlights. My god J. Peterman could wax poetic on the possibilites of Jimbo's Flashlight...."It was a dark and stormy night in my sopping wet St. Petersburg bungalow, and I'd lost track of exactly which end of the bed taxwoman had leatherbound me too, when I whipped out my trusty Flashlight..."
Derktar
QUOTE(Piperdown @ Tue 29th January 2008, 4:21pm) *

QUOTE(Derktar @ Wed 30th January 2008, 12:09am) *

"You most likely know it as Myanmar, but it will always be Burma to me."
- J. Peterman


I'd buy that Urban Sombrero immediately after reading that. J. Peterman should be a Wikipedia personae of some witty editor.

Imagine the possibilities on the tourism sections of all those exotic country articles, or the articles on Men's adventure gear. And the flashlights. My god J. Peterman could wax poetic on the possibilites of Jimbo's Flashlight...."It was a dark and stormy night in my sopping wet St. Petersburg bungalow, and I'd lost track of exactly which end of the bed taxwoman had leatherbound me too, when I whipped out my trusty Flashlight..."

Priceless! And the Urban sombrero takes me back...
guy
Myanmar and Burma are indeed different Anglicisations of the same name, just as Peking/Beijing, Bombay/Mumbai and (for personal names) Isaac/Yitzhak are.
jorge
QUOTE(Amarkov @ Wed 30th January 2008, 12:02am) *

Myanmar's actual name is this. It is translated as "Union of Myanmar"; in no way can you get "Burma" out of it. So we should use the anglicized form of the country's name, which is Myanmar.

Like we should call Germany "Dutchland"?
Disillusioned Lackey
QUOTE(guy @ Wed 30th January 2008, 5:14am) *

Myanmar and Burma are indeed different Anglicisations of the same name, just as Peking/Beijing, Bombay/Mumbai and (for personal names) Isaac/Yitzhak are.


That's actually not true. The junta formally changed the name in summer of 1993 (from Burma to Myanmar). It was made as a part of the Human Rights meeting (where they were something less than popular).

It was sort of a "we don't want the credit for the Mme. Suu Kyi, so changing the name will help make people forget about her". Didn't work though.

QUOTE(guy @ Wed 30th January 2008, 5:14am) *

Myanmar and Burma are indeed different Anglicisations of the same name, just as Peking/Beijing, Bombay/Mumbai and (for personal names) Isaac/Yitzhak are.


You can take that to the extreme and call Joshua = Jesus (which is the same thing) or Issa is Isaac (arabic). But that gets awfully complicated.
Poetlister
QUOTE(Disillusioned Lackey @ Wed 30th January 2008, 12:23pm) *

You can take that to the extreme and call Joshua = Jesus (which is the same thing) or Issa is Isaac (arabic). But that gets awfully complicated.

I think the point is that on the English Wikipedia we should use whatever name is most prevalent in the English-speaking world. That would cover Joshua for Yehoshua in the Old Testament and Jesus for Jesus Christ. No doubt other names would be used in other language Wikipedias, and of course Cologne is Koln on the German Wikipedia and London is Londres on the French one.

It was quite wrong to use the name Myanmar. That's not to say that the motives of those trying to change it to Burma are purely a concern with what is the most popular name in English.

Kato
QUOTE(Poetlister @ Wed 30th January 2008, 12:50pm) *

It was quite wrong to use the name Myanmar. That's not to say that the motives of those trying to change it to Burma are purely a concern with what is the most popular name in English.

Any self respecting resource would call the country by its name in English, Myanmar.

If English people wondering around Clapham have yet to realize that the country changed its name then that is of no consequence.

I find these arguments really ignorant and offensive. Particularly coming from English people, who apparently have no sensitivities to the history of the region. You'll be demanding the restoration of Rhodesia and an end to home rule in Ireland next.
jorge
QUOTE(Kato @ Wed 30th January 2008, 2:48pm) *

I find these arguments really ignorant and offensive. Particularly coming from English people, who apparently have no sensitivities to the history of the region. You'll be demanding the restoration of Rhodesia and an end to home rule in Ireland next.

But Kato, it was not the people that changed it democratically, but a dictatorship that did and there is plenty of evidence that people in the country still regard their country to be Burma not Myanmar.
Herschelkrustofsky
QUOTE(Kato @ Wed 30th January 2008, 6:48am) *

QUOTE(Poetlister @ Wed 30th January 2008, 12:50pm) *

It was quite wrong to use the name Myanmar. That's not to say that the motives of those trying to change it to Burma are purely a concern with what is the most popular name in English.

Any self respecting resource would call the country by its name in English, Myanmar.


Agreed. In this instance, the debate about which name is the popular usage is simply a red herring. And George Bush does not prefer "Burma" simply because he cannot say "Myanmar."

QUOTE(jorge @ Wed 30th January 2008, 7:57am) *

...there is plenty of evidence that people in the country still regard their country to be Burma not Myanmar.


Really? Cite some.
Amarkov
QUOTE(jorge @ Wed 30th January 2008, 7:57am) *

QUOTE(Kato @ Wed 30th January 2008, 2:48pm) *

I find these arguments really ignorant and offensive. Particularly coming from English people, who apparently have no sensitivities to the history of the region. You'll be demanding the restoration of Rhodesia and an end to home rule in Ireland next.

But Kato, it was not the people that changed it democratically, but a dictatorship that did and there is plenty of evidence that people in the country still regard their country to be Burma not Myanmar.


Then that evidence should be noted in the article, in some section about a name dispute. But, no matter how the country's name was changed, it is presently called Myanmar. It's not correct to call it "Burma", any more than it was ever correct to call the USSR "Russia".
Moulton
And while we're at it, Barak Obama is not an African-American. He's a Kenyan-Kansan.
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