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Docknell
Hello, I believe this requires in depth examination.

Moving from the Jules Verne discussion, it seems the pederasty article in general has had quite some obvious pedophile activity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pederasty

The pro pederasts seem largely to be pro pedophile. They use the same sort of arguments throughout, and judging by how the article was last week, the pederasty seems to be an actual refuge for pedophiles looking for ways to normalize the idea.

The editor: AnotherSolipsist was blocked indefinitely due to being a self identified pedophile

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:AnotherSolipsist

His supporting editors seem to be Haiduc,

Jeffpw
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=222036273

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=222034042

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=222036221

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=222036472

amongst others


Then there seems to be a revenge block, this time towards one of the key editors cleaning up the pro-pederasty article, and surprise surprise, coming straight from FT2:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Phd...blocking_by_FT2

It really does seem to me as though there is huge resistance to any cleanup of pro-pedophile pro-pederasty, pro-crank articles.

There's a lot more to look into

Docknell

Peter Damian
QUOTE(Docknell @ Sun 29th June 2008, 9:49am) *

Hello, I believe this requires in depth examination.

Moving from the Jules Verne discussion, it seems the pederasty article in general has had quite some obvious pedophile activity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pederasty

The pro pederasts seem largely to be pro pedophile. They use the same sort of arguments throughout, and judging by how the article was last week, the pederasty seems to be an actual refuge for pedophiles looking for ways to normalize the idea.

The editor: AnotherSolipsist was blocked indefinitely due to being a self identified pedophile

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:AnotherSolipsist

His supporting editors seem to be Haiduc,

Jeffpw
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=222036273

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=222034042

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=222036221

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=222036472

amongst others


Then there seems to be a revenge block, this time towards one of the key editors cleaning up the pro-pederasty article, and surprise surprise, coming straight from FT2:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Phd...blocking_by_FT2

It really does seem to me as though there is huge resistance to any cleanup of pro-pedophile pro-pederasty, pro-crank articles.

There's a lot more to look into

Docknell


That's incredible. I am going out now, but just to say I noticed on one of the paedo pages that they weren't going to bother with reverting the edits, but were going to take the complaint elsewhere. Unbelievable. How can FT2 be doing this in view of what is happening elsewhere?????
Proabivouac
QUOTE(Docknell @ Sun 29th June 2008, 8:49am) *

Then there seems to be a revenge block, this time towards one of the key editors cleaning up the pro-pederasty article, and surprise surprise, coming straight from FT2:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Phd...blocking_by_FT2

Add this…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Phd...blocking_by_FT2
…and this…
http://bp3.blogger.com/_CPjfQwJ6uYk/SGdDls...h/FT2+Block.png
…to this…
QUOTE(FT2)

"Orangemarlin (talk · contribs) - and indeed a number of users - are reminded of the Wikipedia principle in this case, that personal beliefs whether "bad" or "good" should be left at the door and not brought on-wiki. This extends especially to matters where editors may be expected to have compelling personal feelings. It is also not merely applicable to stances deemed "negative"…"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req..._personal_views

…and what do you have?

Other problems with the Pederasty article:
http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?s=&sh...ndpost&p=110189
LamontStormstar
Well pederasty, if I understand it correctly, if an adult man and a male who was a teenager, I guess 15.

Look at the arrest history in the NAMLBA article. Ages: 12, 11, 6, 7-9. The only charge for someone who had hit puberty was a 14 year old girl.

So if you send a bunch of pedos into the pederasty article, they'll say "The ancient greeks thought molesting 6 year old boys was normal". Pederasty could still be legal and accepted if they upped the age only a couple years to 16-18--whatever the age of consent is generally is. Like a 40 year old and an 18 year old, like a gay version of The Graduate.

But people on wikipedia are going and trying to make it seem like it was an accepted social behavior to molest 8 year olds.
Peter Damian
I have left this message on FT2's talk page. Reproduced here in case of oversighting.


QUOTE
WTF???????
You had better have a good explanation for this block

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...ge=User:Phdarts

PD is doing a very good job with cleaning up some incredibly POV and pederasty-pushing edits on a number of articles. So why TF are you blocking him? I am trying to support but it is no good without expert help.

And what is this edit below? It says the pro-pederasts will 'demand third party intervention'. Who is that? You? This had better be good


What has happened to the Pederasty article is unfortunate if not unprecedented. This group are obviously acting together, and their agenda is also obvious. There are so many non-sequiturs and basic fallacies which parade under a (thin) guise of academic respectability, that one can hardly begin to unravel the knots - though you have made a good fist of it in the Talk pages. I am sorry about my long absence, during which time I lost (through computer failure) much data including my Wiki log-in details, hence the identity adjustment. Like you, I am much pressed for time, though I think that matters have gone beyond personal intervention - however well-authenticated - and now demand third-party intervention (as before). The current clique is clearly not susceptible to reasoned argument, since they insist on viewing the subject from a modern standpoint with the all the distortions of terminology and current social theory. I still may throw in the odd spanner and will certainly follow your own strategy with interest. Wikipedia is of course 'democratic' in essence with all the uncertainties that brings to bear on exceptional writers like yourself. With best wishes, D. (Domniqencore (talk) 09:50, 28 June 2008 (UTC)) http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=221444762

Hinnibilis/Peter Damian Hinnibilis (talk) 09:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:FT2"
Viridae
When did you change account names?
Peter Damian
They re both legitimate accounts, look at the user pages. Each states that one is a sock of the other, to avoid confusion.

In case of confusion, I am not Phdarts. I am Peter Damian (who does philosophy) and Hinnibilis (Tuscan villas and, now, pederasty).


QUOTE
It's called a CheckUser block. FT2 obviously had evidence that he was a banned user based on the use of his checkuser tool and made the block - it's actually quite a standard block if you ask me. Ryan Postlethwaite 09:18, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

The effect is to support the efforts of paedophiles, isn't it? PHD is an exceptionally good editor and has a strong scientific knowledge of the subject. Why was he banned in the first place? Why this secrecy? Hinnibilis (talk) 09:22, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

We're all aware of you past account, blocked for harassment of FT2 - I suggest you disengage quickly from this and go and do something else, or you'll find yourself blocked again. Ryan Postlethwaite 09:24, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

No way, I'm sticking to this one. Go ahead and block and see what happens. Everything I said re the other affair was proved and admitted privately by Arbcom. Hinnibilis (talk) 09:25, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:FT2"
wikiwhistle
QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Sun 29th June 2008, 10:14am) *

I have left this message on FT2's talk page. Reproduced here in case of oversighting.


QUOTE
WTF???????
You had better have a good explanation for this block

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...ge=User:Phdarts

PD is doing a very good job with cleaning up some incredibly POV and pederasty-pushing edits on a number of articles. So why TF are you blocking him? I am trying to support but it is no good without expert help.

And what is this edit below? It says the pro-pederasts will 'demand third party intervention'. Who is that? You? This had better be good


What has happened to the Pederasty article is unfortunate if not unprecedented. This group are obviously acting together, and their agenda is also obvious. There are so many non-sequiturs and basic fallacies which parade under a (thin) guise of academic respectability, that one can hardly begin to unravel the knots - though you have made a good fist of it in the Talk pages. I am sorry about my long absence, during which time I lost (through computer failure) much data including my Wiki log-in details, hence the identity adjustment. Like you, I am much pressed for time, though I think that matters have gone beyond personal intervention - however well-authenticated - and now demand third-party intervention (as before). The current clique is clearly not susceptible to reasoned argument, since they insist on viewing the subject from a modern standpoint with the all the distortions of terminology and current social theory. I still may throw in the odd spanner and will certainly follow your own strategy with interest. Wikipedia is of course 'democratic' in essence with all the uncertainties that brings to bear on exceptional writers like yourself. With best wishes, D. (Domniqencore (talk) 09:50, 28 June 2008 (UTC)) http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=221444762

Hinnibilis/Peter Damian Hinnibilis (talk) 09:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:FT2"



Oh Peter, you really have no fear of wikideath, do you? smile.gif It would be admirable in a way, if it doesn't just lead to a block and then we'll be deprived of your comments there again. sad.gif
LamontStormstar
Here's a good talk quote:

QUOTE

I have re-written the introduction to conform with standard dictionary definitions, i.e. an explicitly sexual practice involving post-adolescent males and adolescent boys. Under this definition, actually much of the article can now be deleted, since the Greek practices do not conform to the modern definition.



See...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_pederastic_couples

Not a single man sexing up anyone before puberty.


You can thank NAMBLA and Chris Hansen for confusing people of what is a pre and what is post puberty.


I also now after reading it will never think the same way about Oscar Wilde references on Uncyclopedia.
Docknell
QUOTE(LamontStormstar @ Sun 29th June 2008, 9:39am) *

Here's a good talk quote:

QUOTE

I have re-written the introduction to conform with standard dictionary definitions, i.e. an explicitly sexual practice involving post-adolescent males and adolescent boys. Under this definition, actually much of the article can now be deleted, since the Greek practices do not conform to the modern definition.



See...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_pederastic_couples

Not a single man sexing up anyone before puberty.


You can thank NAMBLA and Chris Hansen for confusing people of what is a pre and what is post puberty.


I also now after reading it will never think the same way about Oscar Wilde references on Uncyclopedia.


This is interesting. According to Thatcher, the only result coming back is that the editor may be HeadleyDown, but its not conclusive at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=222455553

Actually, judging by the way FT2 has conflated the huge range of global IPs on the HeadleyDown article, a wide range of people in the could world simultaneously be HeadleyDown.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lon...use/HeadleyDown

Does the editor in question seem to be "a reincarnator who specializes in massive sneaky pov vandalism with multiple sock/meatpuppets (around 50 - 80 over some 3 years, often 3 - 10 at a time on multiple articles" ???

It just looks like more of FT2's "catch anything that I don't like" sort of strategies. Anyone who doesn't like NLP, zoophilia, pedophilia etc - beware.

Docknell




thekohser
Please. Could we all remember that we are dealing with a website whose Deputy Director is a known public advocate of pro-pedophilia positions? What do you all expect?

A fish rots from the head down.

My candidacy for the Board of Trustees was based on exposing these problems and sweeping them out of the system. I came in last place out of 15 candidates.

Message received?

Greg
GlassBeadGame

Wikipedia: An encyclopedia specializing in topics relating to pedophilia written by pedophiles who are permitted to conceal their identities while working with children at their sides and all the while granted immunity by an act of the US Congress.

What could possibly go wrong?
Docknell
Well I'm going to assume good faith and assume that the editor Phdarts is actually HeadleyDown

So the editor went onto the pederasty article and started placing edits that were warred over onto the talkpage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pederast...oper_discussion

Which was of course replied to by some editors (such as the banned pedophile, Haiduc and others) as homophobic propaganda

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pederast...obic_propaganda

Phdarts also requested a wikiquette so as to improve discussion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pederasty#Wikiquette_alert

And when the wikiquette editor passed on the matter (though gave reasonable apologies;

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=221430380

Phdarts then ran an RFC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pederast...c_propaganda.3F

Which seems to have been totally ignored by those making accusations of homophobia


Keep in mind, that said Phdarts was also adding new peer reviewed information that states homosexuality is mutually exclusive to pederasty

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=222263686

Which has since been removed by the editor who was collaborating with the self identified pedophile (Haiduc)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=222440622

I would say that Wikipedia basically sucks

If wikipedians ever get the pederasty articles in majority oriented order, I (and I am sure many people) will be totally surprised.

Basically its not going to happen because wikipedians protect pedophiles

There may be a token banning whenever one is stupid enough to name themself as a pedophile, but the rest will simply keep shtum as a result, and continue with the POV push.

So whether by design or stupidity, pedophiles will still revel with glee in wikipedia.



GlassBeadGame
QUOTE(Docknell @ Sun 29th June 2008, 9:12am) *


So whether by design or stupidity, pedophiles will still revel with glee in wikipedia.


If you lived next door to John Wayne Gacy while he was active in Chicago and you thought something was a miss with his activities would you engage him in endless chats? Would you creep around the crawl space under his house? Or maybe you should just call the police?
Docknell
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Sun 29th June 2008, 3:42pm) *

QUOTE(Docknell @ Sun 29th June 2008, 9:12am) *


So whether by design or stupidity, pedophiles will still revel with glee in wikipedia.


If you lived next door to John Wayne Gacy while he was active in Chicago and you thought something was a miss with his activities would you engage him in endless chats? Would you creep around the crawl space under his house? Or maybe you should just call the police?



Its just amazing. And the whitewash is being poured on by the bucketload by the pro pedophiles

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=222474746

A vicious attack on the pederasty article? Does he mean all that horrid wikiquette, majority view, and RFC stuff?

And of course no mention at all of the self-identified pedophile he works with and protects.

Incredible stuff! It would seem to me to be completely reasonable to conclude that a major NAMBLA promotion drive is actually on Wikipedia.

Still, at least some people know exactly who the pro pedos are. The trouble is, some adimins are protecting them, and the rest either don't give a toss or can't do anything about it anyway.

Peter Damian
QUOTE
Personal attacks on FT2
This is your last warning. If you continue to make personal attacks, you will be blocked for disruption.

Your attacks on FT2 somehow assuming his actions are caused by his support of pedophiles are completely over the line please somehow edit your entries or I would block you. FT2 does not deserve such assertions. Blocking socks used to circumvent blocks and bans are routine duty of administrators and checkusers. If you think somebody was incorrectly blocked on the first place then you should argue his or her unblocking. Sockpuppeting and uncivility would not only harm those goals Alex Bakharev (talk) 09:35, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Hinnibilis"


I was aware this editor was probably a sock of Headley down. But I never really understood why he was banned in the first place, except for his excellent work on NLP-related subjects (FT's specialism) and on Zoophilia, of course. His editing on both was exceptional except, of course, contrary to received views (FT2's) on the subject.

QUOTE
As it happened I have been through many of Headleydown's edits, and through his sockpuppets. I don't agree with the sockpuppeting but he was a good editor on many subjects. I still don't fully understand why he was banned in the first place, except for the fact he was quite persistent in his objective approach to pseudoscience (specifically NLP which as we know is one of FT2's pet subjects, to Zoophilia, enough said, and now to paedophilia. I was asked by User:Thatcher to help out with the pederasty stuff and you now make my job impossible. I trust Phdart's editing, he has been supporting me in cleaning up that article. And if Alex persists in trying to block me this is going to bo NUCLEAR in a way that you cannot believe. Really. Hinnibilis (talk) 17:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit]] FT2 you say "Headley is basically tricky to spot, but often unmistakable when experienced. " That's because he is deeply opposed to the views you hold on NLP and Zoophilia. Oh yeah. Hinnibilis (talk) 17:31, 29 June 2008 (UTC)


They have completely removed the new definition I provided and have replaced it with nonsense like

QUOTE
The Western model of age-similar homosexual relations is seen by researchers as a departure from this norm since it has rarely appeared as a pattern in other times and places. Unlike the other models, it ‘assumes that homosexuality is not merely a behavior, but something innate to a person’s real being.’[2] In this sense, such cultures do not see the practice of pederasty as something in line with any ideological or traditional model, but instead popularly conflate it with the child sexual abuse model.


It is impossible to edit against such a crowd. At least before I had the support of two people, now both have been blocked. What they have written is nonsense.

QUOTE
Given you've decided to continue your off-wiki campaign against FT2 at WR and now brought it back on-wiki, I've blocked you indefinitely. The level of posting you've made about FT2 is shocking, it really is. Given that your original account was blocked indefinitely for exactly the same thing (and still remains blocked), you obviously haven't learnt your lesson. You were asked to step back and you didn't, so blocking is the only thing left to be done - users which harass other editors aren't welcome here. Ryan Postlethwaite 17:38, 29 June 2008 (UTC)


Look I happen to be an expert on at least part of this subject, and you are blocking, Ryan. What exactly is your level of expertise here? I am 'campaigning' against FT2 because he has blocked another editor who in my view was pretty good, at least here (I can't speak for what he has done elsewhere).
SqueakBox
QUOTE(thekohser @ Sun 29th June 2008, 2:36pm) *

Please. Could we all remember that we are dealing with a website whose Deputy Director is a known public advocate of pro-pedophilia positions? What do you all expect?

A fish rots from the head down.

My candidacy for the Board of Trustees was based on exposing these problems and sweeping them out of the system. I came in last place out of 15 candidates.

Message received?

Greg


You came last, eh? sigh. You got my vote. And yes it is indeed well known that EM has been doing just the same as the 101 PPA socks who wikipedia fail to address. This may come out one day, decent thinking people do not advocate pedophilia ohmy.gif


QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Sun 29th June 2008, 5:41pm) *

QUOTE
Personal attacks on FT2
This is your last warning. If you continue to make personal attacks, you will be blocked for disruption.

Your attacks on FT2 somehow assuming his actions are caused by his support of pedophiles are completely over the line please somehow edit your entries or I would block you. FT2 does not deserve such assertions. Blocking socks used to circumvent blocks and bans are routine duty of administrators and checkusers. If you think somebody was incorrectly blocked on the first place then you should argue his or her unblocking. Sockpuppeting and uncivility would not only harm those goals Alex Bakharev (talk) 09:35, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Hinnibilis"


I was aware this editor was probably a sock of Headley down. But I never really understood why he was banned in the first place, except for his excellent work on NLP-related subjects (FT's specialism) and on Zoophilia, of course. His editing on both was exceptional except, of course, contrary to received views (FT2's) on the subject.

QUOTE
As it happened I have been through many of Headleydown's edits, and through his sockpuppets. I don't agree with the sockpuppeting but he was a good editor on many subjects. I still don't fully understand why he was banned in the first place, except for the fact he was quite persistent in his objective approach to pseudoscience (specifically NLP which as we know is one of FT2's pet subjects, to Zoophilia, enough said, and now to paedophilia. I was asked by User:Thatcher to help out with the pederasty stuff and you now make my job impossible. I trust Phdart's editing, he has been supporting me in cleaning up that article. And if Alex persists in trying to block me this is going to bo NUCLEAR in a way that you cannot believe. Really. Hinnibilis (talk) 17:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit]] FT2 you say "Headley is basically tricky to spot, but often unmistakable when experienced. " That's because he is deeply opposed to the views you hold on NLP and Zoophilia. Oh yeah. Hinnibilis (talk) 17:31, 29 June 2008 (UTC)


They have completely removed the new definition I provided and have replaced it with nonsense like

QUOTE
The Western model of age-similar homosexual relations is seen by researchers as a departure from this norm since it has rarely appeared as a pattern in other times and places. Unlike the other models, it ‘assumes that homosexuality is not merely a behavior, but something innate to a person’s real being.’[2] In this sense, such cultures do not see the practice of pederasty as something in line with any ideological or traditional model, but instead popularly conflate it with the child sexual abuse model.


It is impossible to edit against such a crowd. At least before I had the support of two people, now both have been blocked. What they have written is nonsense.

QUOTE
Given you've decided to continue your off-wiki campaign against FT2 at WR and now brought it back on-wiki, I've blocked you indefinitely. The level of posting you've made about FT2 is shocking, it really is. Given that your original account was blocked indefinitely for exactly the same thing (and still remains blocked), you obviously haven't learnt your lesson. You were asked to step back and you didn't, so blocking is the only thing left to be done - users which harass other editors aren't welcome here. Ryan Postlethwaite 17:38, 29 June 2008 (UTC)


Look I happen to be an expert on at least part of this subject, and you are blocking, Ryan. What exactly is your level of expertise here? I am 'campaigning' against FT2 because he has blocked another editor who in my view was pretty good, at least here (I can't speak for what he has done elsewhere).

Ryan has experience in mediating the pedophile article disputes. unsure.gif
Yehudi
QUOTE(thekohser @ Sun 29th June 2008, 3:36pm) *

My candidacy for the Board of Trustees was based on exposing these problems and sweeping them out of the system. I came in last place out of 15 candidates.

Message received?

So you only lost becasuse all the paedophiles and pro-paedophiles voted against you? ohmy.gif
Peter Damian
As you may have seen, I have now been blocked, for making the comments I made on THIS thread. Utterly unbelievable.
prospero
QUOTE(Docknell @ Sun 29th June 2008, 9:58am) *

QUOTE(LamontStormstar @ Sun 29th June 2008, 9:39am) *

Here's a good talk quote:

QUOTE

I have re-written the introduction to conform with standard dictionary definitions, i.e. an explicitly sexual practice involving post-adolescent males and adolescent boys. Under this definition, actually much of the article can now be deleted, since the Greek practices do not conform to the modern definition.



See...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_pederastic_couples

Not a single man sexing up anyone before puberty.


You can thank NAMBLA and Chris Hansen for confusing people of what is a pre and what is post puberty.


I also now after reading it will never think the same way about Oscar Wilde references on Uncyclopedia.


This is interesting. According to Thatcher, the only result coming back is that the editor may be HeadleyDown, but its not conclusive at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=222455553

Actually, judging by the way FT2 has conflated the huge range of global IPs on the HeadleyDown article, a wide range of people in the could world simultaneously be HeadleyDown.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lon...use/HeadleyDown

Does the editor in question seem to be "a reincarnator who specializes in massive sneaky pov vandalism with multiple sock/meatpuppets (around 50 - 80 over some 3 years, often 3 - 10 at a time on multiple articles" ???

It just looks like more of FT2's "catch anything that I don't like" sort of strategies. Anyone who doesn't like NLP, zoophilia, pedophilia etc - beware.

Docknell

A statement from Thatcher:
QUOTE(Thatcher@enwp)
In response to certain comments made off-wiki, I never said the identification of Phdarts as HeadleyDown was inconclusive, I said I lacked the knowledge to make an informed comment. The reasons one leaves in the CU logs do not always match up to reality: if I log as check as "Grawp suspect" and it turns out to be someone else, there is no way to update the log to reflect that. I have checked Phdarts myself, as part of an RFCU on Burrburr, but I did not recognize the IPs and there are no other accounts blocked as sockpuppets on his IPs within the timeframe covered by the data. Based on FT2's email, I also agree Phdarts is a reincarnation of HeadleyDown. Thatcher 17:37, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Proabivouac
Itaqallah, one of Wikipedia's best editors of Islam-related subjects, has arrived on the scene and identified - suprise - serious misrepresentations of Islamic history and law:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=222464582
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pederasty#Sourcing

For example, this completely unsourced gem:
QUOTE

"Islamic jurisprudence generally considers that attraction towards beautiful youths is normal and natural. In order for any sexual act to be a punishable offense four witnesses were required."
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=222467683

It is a very common tactic of sexual identity movements to state that in other cultures, such-and-such behavior was celebrated. Social conservatives, their usual opponents, are rarely knowledgeable about or interested in cultural anthropology and the like, and often allow such claims to stand unchallenged. Put them under a microscope, and they're very often falsehoods built upon some small grain of truth.

The article does not need, in my opinion, psychologists fighting over whether pederasty is healthy or normal, or other value-judgment type edits. It very much needs vetting of the wishful thinking its authors have imposed upon other cultures and upon classical antiquity.

Someone has, for example, completely mangled this source…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty#Australasia
http://books.google.com/books?id=mlFp0nFhv...=result#PPR5,M1
…conflating several papers about completely different cultures (Vanuatu and New Guinea highlands, for example) and misattributing work of their various authors to its editor, Herdt.

"Many native cultures…" is always a red flag in this respect.

thekohser
QUOTE(Yehudi @ Sun 29th June 2008, 1:56pm) *

QUOTE(thekohser @ Sun 29th June 2008, 3:36pm) *

My candidacy for the Board of Trustees was based on exposing these problems and sweeping them out of the system. I came in last place out of 15 candidates.

Message received?

So you only lost becasuse all the paedophiles and pro-paedophiles voted against you? ohmy.gif


Yes, Yehudi, you are exactly correct. Perfect assessment of the situation! My, you're good! Keep up the good work here on Wikipedia Review, reviewing Wikipedia with such sagacity.
guy
QUOTE(thekohser @ Sun 29th June 2008, 11:16pm) *

Yes, Yehudi, you are exactly correct. Perfect assessment of the situation! My, you're good! Keep up the good work here on Wikipedia Review, reviewing Wikipedia with such sagacity.

Perhaps I'd better interpret this for people. Greg says "My candidacy for the Board of Trustees was based on exposing these problems and sweeping them out of the system. I came in last place out of 15 candidates." This is of course a strong hint that he came bottom because people didn't want these problems exposed. Yehudi is shocked by this. Greg responds with what he presumably imagines is smart irony. (It isn't, but let's not disillusion him.) He knows that nobody will do other than fawn on him because he once gave some money towards the upkeep of the site.
dtobias
"...Cunnilingus, Pederasty; Father, why do those words sound so nasty?"
-- "Sodomy", from the soundtrack of the musical Hair
thekohser
QUOTE(guy @ Sun 29th June 2008, 6:31pm) *

QUOTE(thekohser @ Sun 29th June 2008, 11:16pm) *

Yes, Yehudi, you are exactly correct. Perfect assessment of the situation! My, you're good! Keep up the good work here on Wikipedia Review, reviewing Wikipedia with such sagacity.

Perhaps I'd better interpret this for people. Greg says "My candidacy for the Board of Trustees was based on exposing these problems and sweeping them out of the system. I came in last place out of 15 candidates." This is of course a strong hint that he came bottom because people didn't want these problems exposed. Yehudi is shocked by this. Greg responds with what he presumably imagines is smart irony. (It isn't, but let's not disillusion him.) He knows that nobody will do other than fawn on him because he once gave some money towards the upkeep of the site.


Guy, you're spot on! You've hit the bulls-eye, once again. Is there no limit to your wondrous accuracy and ability to crystallize complex scenarios into digestible pieces? You do such glorious things for this site, moving threads, correcting formatting in posts. Man, I owe you a case of beer!

I wish even a quarter of my posts to this site were as enlightening and thought-provoking as yours always are! Thank you! ! ! !
Milton Roe
QUOTE(dtobias @ Sun 29th June 2008, 11:12pm) *

"...Cunnilingus, Pederasty; Father, why do those words sound so nasty?"
-- "Sodomy", from the soundtrack of the musical Hair


Even AerLingus sounds nasty to me, but I assume it's just an Irish mile-high club of some kind.

We had a boy in our school whose parents were always urging to masticate more. And their daughter's pulchritude was well-known. But what can you do.
Proabivouac
Back on topic…
Why is Haiduc using a professor of English, known as a pioneer of gay studies, for sweeping and palpably biased statements about Greek and Roman history?
QUOTE(Haiduc)

In the West it is best represented by the institutions of Ancient Greece, where it reached its cultural zenith in 5th century BC Athens (see Athenian pederasty). There it was the subject of philosophic debates in which the carnal aspects were unfavorably compared with erotic but spiritual and restrained manifestations (see The Greeks below). While male love in antiquity was generally subject to various limitations, its Roman era suppression, culminating in the persecution of homosexuals during Mediaeval times and the Spanish Inquisition and Renaissance Italy[1] stemmed from the growing Christian movements in Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=..._note-History-0


And that's the part that's sourced!

Then you have unsourced statements such as:
QUOTE(Haiduc)

Today, the Greek model is practised in secret, while the Melanesian - associated mainly with [[Papua New Guinea]] - died out before the end of the twentieth century.

It's clear that Haiduc is a pretty opinionated fellow, and does not respect Wikipedia's source policies.
Docknell

The effort to actually make sensible edits out of obvious sexual abuse promotion on the pederasty article is utterly pathetic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=222496698

"I think it would be a goodness to have knowledgeable editors look at the issue of pro-pederasty edits, who can edit reasonably, use sources correctly, not simply be a reactionary reverter, and not use sockpuppets. That won't be me, I'm afraid. I know almost nothing about the topic,"


Thatcher is basically gloating. Editors who decide to do something about pedophilia pushing articles are punished, and editors who collaborate with known pedophiles are left to freely carry on the obvious promotion.

Their main intervention; If you disagree with FT2, you will be blocked or banned.

Its all too convenient. Only when a pedophile gets banned does anyone take any notice. Then revenge, an admins trump up any method they can to make sure the edits the pedophile made get restored into the article and protected by any other pedophile who is carefull enough not to state they are a pedophile. They can make as many classic NAMBLA statements as they like in discussion, with no admin ever thinking twice about it, and no reversions to obvious unsourced propedo POV.

Any mention of scrutiny of the pederasty article is pure whitewash by admins. They will never follow through and they never intend to.

The fact that they only block pedophiles who obviously state they are pedos is proof enough that admin just want to keep them working quietly on their pro pedo articles. They are not blocking pedophiles per se, they are only blocking pedophiles who bring the obvious fact that wikipedia is pedo ridden into the ambit of journalists who can report on the matter.

The message is "all pedophile promotors, keep your heads down and do your work, and we will punish any editor who disagrees with your paraphile admin friends"







Peter Damian
QUOTE(Proabivouac @ Sun 29th June 2008, 11:15pm) *


The article does not need, in my opinion, psychologists fighting over whether pederasty is healthy or normal, or other value-judgment type edits. It very much needs vetting of the wishful thinking its authors have imposed upon other cultures and upon classical antiquity.



Thank you also for that. Yes, it also irritates me that the debate always revolves around modern science. The real question is whether the history is being treated correctly. It is very difficult to make judgments given that all the historical sources are biased in some way. The best we can say is that, just as it is hard today to understand how society really thinks about sex, it is a million times harder when we go back 2,000 years.
Docknell
QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Mon 30th June 2008, 8:15am) *

QUOTE(Proabivouac @ Sun 29th June 2008, 11:15pm) *


The article does not need, in my opinion, psychologists fighting over whether pederasty is healthy or normal, or other value-judgment type edits. It very much needs vetting of the wishful thinking its authors have imposed upon other cultures and upon classical antiquity.



Thank you also for that. Yes, it also irritates me that the debate always revolves around modern science. The real question is whether the history is being treated correctly. It is very difficult to make judgments given that all the historical sources are biased in some way. The best we can say is that, just as it is hard today to understand how society really thinks about sex, it is a million times harder when we go back 2,000 years.



Sure, disagreement on whether it is harmful or not is not at all necessary. Its easy enough just to plonk a section in there on differences of opinion, and quote those views. Thats clearly what Haiduc and the self-proclaimed pedophile were trying to get rid of.

Actually it looks like the psychology opinions are mostly on pederasty's distinct nature from homosexuality. Some say they are related (of course pederasty is technically "homosexual pedophilia"), other say "but they are mutually exclusive". Attraction for adolescents dies when they get too muscularly toned and manly for pederasts (and they then get ditched). At that point they start to look more attractive to normal homosexuals (at which point they can have lifelong and legal relationships).

And of course, the relative views should be presented on what all the major historians think. Again I think that really is just a matter of stating what it states. And again, its what the pedophiles seem to have been trying to kick out (with the accusation of homophobia as pretend motivation)

It looks on the discussion page as if the pedophiles were just making tons of excuses and accusations, and the other editors (some of whom may have been anti-pedophile) were saying all relevant sourced views can be presented.

Basically ditch the pedophiles. The normal editors can cope with any anti-pedophile editor who tries to push it too far.

Of course, the opposite happened in this case, thanks to FT2 and other likely interested parties.
Peter Damian
QUOTE(Docknell @ Mon 30th June 2008, 9:29am) *

And of course, the relative views should be presented on what all the major historians think.


The problem is that so little work has been done on this, by any historians. The issue has been largely ignored by all historians, for obvious reasons. More recently 'queer studies' has picked it up. Very much from the angle of, it was something celebrated by ancient cultures, but repressive Christian morality turned it into something taboo.

Completely ignores the fact that, in its formative period, Christian philosophy was much more influenced by Plato than by Aristotle. Plato's view, of course, was that the material body is something evil and to be turned away from and rejected and fought against. We should turn our view towards the eternal and unchangeable, i.e. the Forms. The whole idea of modern sexual identity politics would have been anathema to Plato.
Proabivouac
Socrates was sentenced to death for corrupting the youth. What did this mean?
Peter Damian
QUOTE(Proabivouac @ Mon 30th June 2008, 11:06am) *

Socrates was sentenced to death for corrupting the youth. What did this mean?


Not what Haiduc & co take it to mean. According to the account given by Plato, which of course cannot be regarded as entirely NPOV, the corruption charge concerns Socrates' refusal to recognise the gods of the Athenian state. See here

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/apology.html

SOCRATES: I have shown, Athenians, as I was saying, that Meletus has no care at all, great or small, about the matter. But still I should like to know, Meletus, in what I am affirmed to corrupt the young. I suppose you mean, as I infer from your indictment, that I teach them not to acknowledge the gods which the state acknowledges, but some other new divinities or spiritual agencies in their stead. These are the lessons which corrupt the youth, as you say.

MELETUS: Yes, that I say emphatically.

However, this seems unlikely given that other writers such as Aristophanes who represented the gods in various obscene ways, was not prosecuted for corruption or impiety.
guy
QUOTE(thekohser @ Mon 30th June 2008, 12:15am) *

Guy, you're spot on! You've hit the bulls-eye, once again. Is there no limit to your wondrous accuracy and ability to crystallize complex scenarios into digestible pieces? You do such glorious things for this site, moving threads, correcting formatting in posts. Man, I owe you a case of beer!

I wish even a quarter of my posts to this site were as enlightening and thought-provoking as yours always are! Thank you! ! ! !

Why thank you Greg, *blush*.

I'm most grateful for your offer of a case of beer, but as you know, I'm a teetotaller.
Moulton
QUOTE(Proabivouac @ Mon 30th June 2008, 6:06am) *
Socrates was sentenced to death for corrupting the youth. What did this mean?

I suppose it means that Athens, like Wikipedia, didn't embrace Due Process, either.
Milton Roe
QUOTE(Moulton @ Mon 30th June 2008, 9:13pm) *

QUOTE(Proabivouac @ Mon 30th June 2008, 6:06am) *
Socrates was sentenced to death for corrupting the youth. What did this mean?

I suppose it means that Athens, like Wikipedia, didn't embrace Due Process, either.

Joan of Arc was also charged with perverting children. No due process there, either. Really, you should read For the children. We all love children and pie. But we need to be constantly on guard against anybody advancing their agendas on the basis that some child or other will see something or other they shouldn't. Or that somewhere along the line, this [whatever thingy] will make some child-molester's job easier.

The function of technology is to make jobs easier. All jobs. Good jobs, evil jobs, in-between jobs. Be ever on your guard against arguments that some neutral form of power is to be surpressed because it allows evil people more power.

What we usually do when a new form of power becomes available, and somebody misuses it, is instead of outlawing it completely,we slow it down, control it, and license it only to people who've passed a knowledge test and can show ID. If you don't do that, bad things happen with automobiles, firearms, airplanes, radioisotopes, explosives, and so on. It may be that we're beginning to come to some of that those same lessons about computers and software, which after all, only represent raw power, neither intrinsically good or evil.

I know that people are used to creating and running a botnet with less external social vigiliance than they're have to undergo in buying a pistol or a stick of dynamite (both of which you can still do in the US, BTW). But perhaps it shouldn't be that way. Think of all the problems we were promised at Y2K which never happened. Okay, so that was premature. But those things CAN increasingly happen if the internet goes down. You CAN kill somebody with a botnet attack on social infrastructure. If it hasn't been done yet, it will eventually.

M

PS. Something needs to be said here about "porn," since that's also being discussed here. Now that porn has become completely uncontrollable, we're starting to get some people noticing the sour grapes aspect of it. Porn isn't interesting to children, and by the time the mature enough that (some of it) is interesting, they're not children any more (almost by defintion). So it's sort of self-regulating, insofar as corruption of children. In this sense, porn is NOT at all like pedophilia, in which the intrinsically uninterested person is often coerced by the interested one.
Docknell
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Mon 30th June 2008, 9:30pm) *

QUOTE(Moulton @ Mon 30th June 2008, 9:13pm) *

QUOTE(Proabivouac @ Mon 30th June 2008, 6:06am) *
Socrates was sentenced to death for corrupting the youth. What did this mean?

I suppose it means that Athens, like Wikipedia, didn't embrace Due Process, either.

Joan of Arc was also charged with perverting children. No due process there, either. Really, you should read For the children. We all love children and pie. But we need to be constantly on guard against anybody advancing their agendas on the basis that some child or other will see something or other they shouldn't. Or that somewhere along the line, this [whatever thingy] will make some child-molester's job easier.

The function of technology is to make jobs easier. All jobs. Good jobs, evil jobs, in-between jobs. Be ever on your guard against arguments that some neutral form of power is to be surpressed because it allows evil people more power.

What we usually do when a new form of power becomes available, and somebody misuses it, is instead of outlawing it completely,we slow it down, control it, and license it only to people who've passed a knowledge test and can show ID. If you don't do that, bad things happen with automobiles, firearms, airplanes, radioisotopes, explosives, and so on. It may be that we're beginning to come to some of that those same lessons about computers and software, which after all, only represent raw power, neither intrinsically good or evil.

I know that people are used to creating and running a botnet with less external social vigiliance than they're have to undergo in buying a pistol or a stick of dynamite (both of which you can still do in the US, BTW). But perhaps it shouldn't be that way. Think of all the problems we were promised at Y2K which never happened. Okay, so that was premature. But those things CAN increasingly happen if the internet goes down. You CAN kill somebody with a botnet attack on social infrastructure. If it hasn't been done yet, it will eventually.

M

PS. Something needs to be said here about "porn," since that's also being discussed here. Now that porn has become completely uncontrollable, we're starting to get some people noticing the sour grapes aspect of it. Porn isn't interesting to children, and by the time the mature enough that (some of it) is interesting, they're not children any more (almost by defintion). So it's sort of self-regulating, insofar as corruption of children. In this sense, porn is NOT at all like pedophilia, in which the intrinsically uninterested person is often coerced by the interested one.



Child porn is an issue relevant to pederasty. Of course those men interested in having or imagining sexual relations with children will do their best to gain access to child pornography, and according to the research, will often take part in its production, and will of course fund it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pederast...hild_abuse_page

Of course, editors there, such as the self-identified pedophile AnotherSolipsist, and Haiduc, have done their best to keep the obvious issue out of the article.

Its similar to issues in zoophilia, which no doubt FT2 will know about, which involves a dismissal of duty of care over animals, exploitation in general and physical abuse.

When a consenting adult creates pornography for other consenting adults, then its a simple issue of rights of expression

When children and animals are used for pornography, its simple abuse and exploitation.

Editors such as FT2 are creating lists of "villainous sockpuppets" from editors who really do care about clearly representing such matters. Its not just about IP blocking. IP is only one source of support for crank admin's POV push. The sockdetector team largely support FT2 and similar. And of course so-called sock masters are supposed to be jetting around the world like J Bond or something, with all the extra IPs. If the IP doesn't work for the crank admin, they will just suppose their hated editor is the same and conflate them with all and sundry abusers all the same.

Nothing will be done about this, because admins either want to suppress such information, or they just don't give a toss. Its not a matter of expertise. The info is all there, getting suppressed by Haiduc, Jeffpw, AnotherSolipsist and co.

Check it out!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pederasty






guy
QUOTE(Docknell @ Tue 1st July 2008, 5:33pm) *

And of course so-called sock masters are supposed to be jetting around the world like J Bond or something, with all the extra IPs.

No, they use Transatlantic Shh tunnels.
Proabivouac
QUOTE(Docknell @ Tue 1st July 2008, 4:33pm) *

Editors such as FT2 are creating lists of "villainous sockpuppets" from editors who really do care about clearly representing such matters.

FT2's sockpuppet identification criteria are entirely without merit, and his identifications should be ignored:
http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?s=&sh...ndpost&p=110399
http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?s=&sh...indpost&p=70624

Here is what passes for a reliable source on Pederasty:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=222643799
"Queer Journal."
Peter Damian
The pederasty article is now back to its original state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty

including the claim that

QUOTE
[the] Roman era suppression [of Pederasty], culminating in the persecution of homosexuals during Mediaeval times and the Spanish Inquisition and Renaissance Italy[1] stemmed from the growing Christian movements in Europe.


I.e. the Judaeo-Christian tradition is obviously the ultimate source of homophobia in the west. Before that, when humankind was in its blessed pre-Fall state, pretty much all societies approved and condoned this, then along came the Devil in the form of the Spanish inquisition and other Christian stuff and lo they were cast from Eden.

Actually that sentence is bad and wrong on many levels. The 1066 style, implying causal connections were there are none, the ignoring of a multitude of sources showing that pederasty was taboo in nearly all pre-Christian societies, the very odd logic connecting the 'Roman era suppression' bit with the 'growing Christian movements' bit.

This is an offence against good writing more than anything else. SOFIXIT? SOGETBLOCKED!

[edit] The reference gives Crompton, which is a somewhat biased source, but even Crompton would not have written anything quite so crass and stupid as that.

* Louis Crompton, Homosexuality and Civilization, pp32-48, pp136-149
LessHorrid vanU
QUOTE(Docknell @ Tue 1st July 2008, 5:33pm) *
...to issues in zoophilia, which no doubt FT2 will know about, which involves a dismissal of duty of care over animals, exploitation in general and physical abuse.


Yeah, because after a night of tender passion with the family donkey, you then find it really hard to pack 3 or 4 times its body weight in "cargo" onto its back, and then drive it to town a mere ten miles away, and it really upsets you to have your ex-lover skinned and have its bones boiled down for glue when it dies after a few years labour.

Damn, injuring an animals self esteem by shagging it is far more terrible than working it to death (which habitually includes the use of goads and whips, etc.) I suppose


(This is not to say that I condone beastiality in any way, but mans abuse of animals is not limited - or even exampled worst by - engaging in sexual relations with them.)
Docknell
QUOTE(LessHorrid vanU @ Wed 2nd July 2008, 10:32pm) *

QUOTE(Docknell @ Tue 1st July 2008, 5:33pm) *
...to issues in zoophilia, which no doubt FT2 will know about, which involves a dismissal of duty of care over animals, exploitation in general and physical abuse.


Yeah, because after a night of tender passion with the family donkey, you then find it really hard to pack 3 or 4 times its body weight in "cargo" onto its back, and then drive it to town a mere ten miles away, and it really upsets you to have your ex-lover skinned and have its bones boiled down for glue when it dies after a few years labour.

Damn, injuring an animals self esteem by shagging it is far more terrible than working it to death (which habitually includes the use of goads and whips, etc.) I suppose


(This is not to say that I condone beastiality in any way, but mans abuse of animals is not limited - or even exampled worst by - engaging in sexual relations with them.)


Yes, thats a common pro-zoophile argument.

And a NAMBLA argument

It sidesteps the duty of care issue. Its not just about killing/damaging children or animals. Duty of care is more relevant to making sure there are no infant brothels, boy brothels, and animal brothels set up for pedophiles, pederasts, and zoophiles. A farmer could probably make a bit of money on the side by providing more of such an "entertainment" value to his flock. And from a zoophile perspective, he would actually be "tending his flock" in such a "loving" way. It would be a serious abuse.

And of course, the child porn, animal porn issues are relevant to duty of care also.

Actually, duty of care is sidestepped on WP in general.
thekohser
QUOTE(Docknell @ Wed 2nd July 2008, 10:34pm) *

...A farmer could probably make a bit of money on the side by providing more of such an "entertainment" value to his flock. And from a zoophile perspective, he would actually be "tending his flock" in such a "loving" way...


MyDonkeyBiz.com, anyone?
Peter Damian
QUOTE(LessHorrid vanU @ Wed 2nd July 2008, 11:32pm) *

Damn, injuring an animals self esteem by shagging it is far more terrible than working it to death (which habitually includes the use of goads and whips, etc.) I suppose


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

Tu quoque is a Latin term used to mean an accusation of hypocrisy. The argument states that a certain position is false or wrong and/or should be disregarded because its proponent fails to act consistently in accordance with that position; it attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. It is considered an ad hominem argument, since it focuses on the opposite party itself, rather than its positions.
Milton Roe
QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Thu 3rd July 2008, 12:52pm) *

Tu quoque is a Latin term used to mean an accusation of hypocrisy. The argument states that a certain position is false or wrong and/or should be disregarded because its proponent fails to act consistently in accordance with that position; it attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. It is considered an ad hominem argument, since it focuses on the opposite party itself, rather than its positions.

Tu quoque is Latin for modern English "PotKettleBlack."
LessHorrid vanU
QUOTE(Docknell @ Thu 3rd July 2008, 3:34am) *

QUOTE(LessHorrid vanU @ Wed 2nd July 2008, 10:32pm) *

QUOTE(Docknell @ Tue 1st July 2008, 5:33pm) *
...to issues in zoophilia, which no doubt FT2 will know about, which involves a dismissal of duty of care over animals, exploitation in general and physical abuse.


Yeah, because after a night of tender passion with the family donkey, you then find it really hard to pack 3 or 4 times its body weight in "cargo" onto its back, and then drive it to town a mere ten miles away, and it really upsets you to have your ex-lover skinned and have its bones boiled down for glue when it dies after a few years labour.

Damn, injuring an animals self esteem by shagging it is far more terrible than working it to death (which habitually includes the use of goads and whips, etc.) I suppose


(This is not to say that I condone beastiality in any way, but mans abuse of animals is not limited - or even exampled worst by - engaging in sexual relations with them.)


Yes, thats a common pro-zoophile argument.

And a NAMBLA argument


I did not know that.
QUOTE

It sidesteps the duty of care issue. Its not just about killing/damaging children or animals. Duty of care is more relevant to making sure there are no infant brothels, boy brothels, and animal brothels set up for pedophiles, pederasts, and zoophiles. A farmer could probably make a bit of money on the side by providing more of such an "entertainment" value to his flock. And from a zoophile perspective, he would actually be "tending his flock" in such a "loving" way. It would be a serious abuse.

And of course, the child porn, animal porn issues are relevant to duty of care also.

Actually, duty of care is sidestepped on WP in general.


While I agree that there should be a duty of care toward the child, I had not previously commented upon that aspect - and nor do I intend to now.

The duty of care in relation to animals, however, regarding bestiality is as relevant as the duty of care to animals being sent off to slaughter - it is the intended "consumer" that is being protected. In the case of bestiality the duty of care is to society in that such practitioners are noted as acting beyond what might be considered acceptable. While sex need not be preoccupied with procreation, which allows us all those delightful pleasures we may indulge in ourselves or with partners, it pretty much needs the informed consent of any other party participating - and that is not possible with the rest of the animal kingdom. On that simple basis bestiality is wrong, and our duty of care to the animal is secondary (or even negligible) to the duty of care to human society.

That is to say, I once ate one of Bambi's cousins. Delicious!
Milton Roe
QUOTE(LessHorrid vanU @ Thu 3rd July 2008, 9:13pm) *

While sex need not be preoccupied with procreation, which allows us all those delightful pleasures we may indulge in ourselves or with partners, it pretty much needs the informed consent of any other party participating - and that is not possible with the rest of the animal kingdom. On that simple basis bestiality is wrong, and our duty of care to the animal is secondary (or even negligible) to the duty of care to human society.

That is to say, I once ate one of Bambi's cousins. Delicious!

So screwing an animal requires its informed consent (which you're not going to get), but castrating it, artificially inseminiating it, cutting its throat, or blowing its lungs or brains out with a rifle, does not? wacko.gif

Okay. I just could not resist Devil's Advocacy there.

You know what I think? I think the basic reason you think Bambi-blasting for fun (when you could have had soy burgers) is okay, but are incensed about Bambi-boning for fun, is mainly because your society says it ought to be that way. Not because it particularly makes any rational sense. Actually, it doesn't make any rational sense.

And let me add that I have not the slightest interest in sex with animals. However, I do like clear thinking, when I can get it.
thekohser
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Thu 3rd July 2008, 6:32pm) *

You know what I think? I think the basic reason you think Bambi-blasting for fun (when you could have had soy burgers) is okay, but are incensed about Bambi-boning for fun, is mainly because your society says it ought to be that way. Not because it particularly makes any rational sense. Actually, it doesn't make any rational sense.

And let me add that I have not the slightest interest in sex with animals. However, I do like clear thinking, when I can get it.


Errm... I know you mentioned soy burgers, but...

Humans have at least some difficulty (you have to admit) thriving and living a healthy life without the complex proteins provided in fish, eggs, chicken, pork, beef, lobster, etc.

Humans have absolutely no difficulty at all thriving and living a healthy life without boning a donkey.

Sorry, Milton. There's at least some rational sense in the argument you attempt to squash above.
Docknell
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Thu 3rd July 2008, 10:32pm) *

QUOTE(LessHorrid vanU @ Thu 3rd July 2008, 9:13pm) *

While sex need not be preoccupied with procreation, which allows us all those delightful pleasures we may indulge in ourselves or with partners, it pretty much needs the informed consent of any other party participating - and that is not possible with the rest of the animal kingdom. On that simple basis bestiality is wrong, and our duty of care to the animal is secondary (or even negligible) to the duty of care to human society.

That is to say, I once ate one of Bambi's cousins. Delicious!

So screwing an animal requires its informed consent (which you're not going to get), but castrating it, artificially inseminiating it, cutting its throat, or blowing its lungs or brains out with a rifle, does not? wacko.gif

Okay. I just could not resist Devil's Advocacy there.

You know what I think? I think the basic reason you think Bambi-blasting for fun (when you could have had soy burgers) is okay, but are incensed about Bambi-boning for fun, is mainly because your society says it ought to be that way. Not because it particularly makes any rational sense. Actually, it doesn't make any rational sense.

And let me add that I have not the slightest interest in sex with animals. However, I do like clear thinking, when I can get it.



Sure, these paraphilia articles sometimes contain a few ethical debates in them. But the real problem is people not doing anything about the blindingly obvious POV pushing there. The long term crank editors and admins, such as FT2 tend to persistently push their pro-view, such as restoring a huge section of OR that tries to dissociate zoophilia from illegal behavior (FT2’s view that bona fide research is actually mis citation)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...&oldid=89948995

Which was mostly written and started off as a section by FT2

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...&oldid=53428141

And of course, putting his foot in it by using a sockpuppet that he was using on the NLP article to restore his preferred pro-zoo research

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...&oldid=53385053

The same sort of problems are reflected on the pederasty article in material deletions by self-identified pedophile AnotherSolipsist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=221183700

and Haiduc

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=221069536

Basically, when admins gather round and protect one of their own by saying people are falsely accusing them of bestiality or pederasty, when they are “only making edits”, the onlookers crack up with mirth. To quote a well known soldier “Its ballbouncingly funny”. The only other reaction is to be repressed and depressed.

We don’t need to go into the sort of complexities that FT2 is alluding to here

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=222917055


, when the facts of the matter can be seen all over the fringe pusher’s need to push POV and boot those who apply science and good research to clarify POV (eg, OM, edits by Phdarts, etc). The pushers will set the whole situation up to deter the clarification of their distortions.

So far, admins and arbs seem to have only supported such distortion.



Proabivouac
QUOTE(FT2)

"More recently, research has engaged three further directions - the findings that at least some animals appear to thrive in a zoosexual relationship…"
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...&oldid=53428141

Not drop dead, fine, but thrive?

As I've said earlier, I don't agree with the recentist "criminalogical/psychological" approach to balancing out these articles. Psychology, after all, being not too much more of a science than NLP itself, mostly value-laden opinion dressed up in obscurantist jargon. Pointing out that it is a crime now in certain places is perfectly legitimate, but not a big deal in the scheme of history. More useful would be to scour the advocacy and remove all non-neutral language and poorly-sourced or unsourced claims, as well as irrelevant apologism. It really doesn't matter if some people think it's alright, and I can pretty much guarantee that these studies hailing the purported benefits of zoophilia/pedrasty etc. are not published in reliable sources (or are reliable sources taken horribly out of context - notice the bait-n-switch FT2 used to source zoosexuality to Jonathan Balcombe). Someone was using "queer journal" on pederasty, there is at least one journal for pedophilia published in the Netherlands, etc. - the solution is to identify these correctly as partisan sources, not reputable academic scholarship, and toss them aside.
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