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Dzonatas
QUOTE

...fighting against and killing Jews[specify]


I recently got into a discussion with some people about Hamas's charter. We sourced a few references, and we also looked at Wikipedia. They complained that Hamas charter is not only anti-semitic but also make Gazans all terrorist because of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Hamas_Charter

The Wikipedia article is left with that "[specify]" tag, which means it has never been properly sourced BUT it that statement hasn't been removed. I know there are some pro-Israel users here on WR, and they will try to protect that, even if unsourced, as any Hasbara movement would do.

QUOTE

However, senior British Diplomat and former British Ambassador to the UN Sir Jeremy Greenstock stated in an interview on the BBC Today Programme that the Hamas charter was "drawn up by a Hamas-linked imam some years ago and has never been adopted since Hamas was elected as the Palestinian government in 2006". Greenstock also stated that Hamas is not intent on the destruction of Israel.[98]


That audio does indeed state that the Hamas charter was never officially adopted by Hamas. The British and French have had political control of the Middle East regions until mandates were made to draw borders at attempts to make the Middle East area sovereign. (I said it nicer than probably actually occurred) You would think that the British diplomat would know what he is talking about.

One source of the Hamas Charter doesn't match another source of the Hamas Charter. At least I question which one is correct, but it appears it doesn't say anything like "killing all Jews." There are, however, translated versions that have such statements as "killing all Jews" inserted into the text. There are quotes from Hadith in the charter, which if someone references Hadith directly you will find those instances don't match, either.

Here is an article that covers some of this: http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/020025.php
Herschelkrustofsky
QUOTE(Dzonatas @ Wed 18th February 2009, 2:41pm) *

The British and French have had political control of the Middle East regions until mandates were made to draw borders at attempts to make the Middle East area sovereign. (I said it nicer than probably actually occurred)
The way you said it was slightly confusing, but you are referring to the Sykes-Picot agreement, which laid the basis for non-stop misery in the region right up to the present day.
Dzonatas
QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Wed 18th February 2009, 11:50pm) *

QUOTE(Dzonatas @ Wed 18th February 2009, 2:41pm) *

The British and French have had political control of the Middle East regions until mandates were made to draw borders at attempts to make the Middle East area sovereign. (I said it nicer than probably actually occurred)
The way you said it was slightly confusing, but you are referring to the Sykes-Picot agreement, which laid the basis for non-stop misery in the region right up to the present day.


The LaRouche guy mentioned in that article, is that the same one that was controversial on WR and WIkipedia awhile ago?
Bottled_Spider
QUOTE(Dzonatas @ Thu 19th February 2009, 10:38pm) *
The LaRouche guy mentioned in that article, is that the same one that was controversial on WR and WIkipedia awhile ago?

I was wondering that myself. Has he given up showbiz for good, then?
Herschelkrustofsky
QUOTE(Dzonatas @ Thu 19th February 2009, 2:38pm) *

The LaRouche guy mentioned in that article, is that the same one that was controversial on WR and WIkipedia awhile ago?
Yes.


QUOTE(Bottled_Spider @ Thu 19th February 2009, 2:55pm) *

I was wondering that myself. Has he given up showbiz for good, then?
No.
Bottled_Spider
QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Thu 19th February 2009, 11:07pm) *
QUOTE(Bottled_Spider @ Thu 19th February 2009, 2:55pm) *
I was wondering that myself. Has he given up showbiz for good, then?
No.

Ah. Cheers, mate. I think I may have got the wrong guy, there. So he does podcasts, eh? I'd listen to one; you know, just to see what all the fuss is about, but I'm concerned about subliminal messages, and all that. The times being what they are, and all. I'm not going to start waking up in people's back gardens with no memory of the previous 12 hours or anything horrible like that, am I? I'm fed up of that. Happened last saturday, actually. What a nightmare. Messy business it is too.
Dzonatas
QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Thu 19th February 2009, 3:07pm) *

QUOTE(Dzonatas @ Thu 19th February 2009, 2:38pm) *

The LaRouche guy mentioned in that article, is that the same one that was controversial on WR and WIkipedia awhile ago?
Yes.


The direct link on Wikipedia doesn't work, but...

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blo...07/01/13/p13653

QUOTE

Thus what this manual is explicitly (and revealingly) about is ways to help the user win battles, not to find out the truth of the matter.


Shades of WP:V

Notice where some of the sources come from in the Hamas article.

Blindsided.... I read your sig.
Herschelkrustofsky
QUOTE
Hasbara Manual, page 32-33:

Name Calling

Through the careful choice of words, the name calling technique links a person or an idea to a negative symbol. Creating negative connotations by name calling is done to try and get the audience to reject a person or idea on the basis of negative associations, without allowing a real examination of that person or idea. The most obvious example is name calling -- "they are a neo-Nazi group" tends to sound pretty negative to most people. More subtly, name calling works by selecting words with subtle negative meanings for some listeners. For example, describing demonstrators as "youths" creates a different impression from calling them "children".

For the Israel activist, it is important to be aware of the subtly different meanings that well chosen words give. Call "demonstrations" "riots", many Palestinian political organizations "terror organizations", and so on.

Those opposed to Israel use name calling all the time. Consider the meaning of the word "settlement". When applied to Gilo, a suburb of Jerusalem over the disputed 1967 borders, the word "settlement" creates the unfortunate impression that Gilo is located in the middle of the West Bank, and occupied by religious and political extremists (the image many people have acquired of settlements). That's how the media and opponents of Israel use name-calling. Other examples include referring to the "war crimes" of Ariel Sharon, talking about the "invasion" of the West Bank when an army unit enters territory under PA sovereignty in order to find terrorists, and so on.

Name calling is hard to counter. Don't allow opponents the opportunity to engage in point scoring. Whenever "name calling" is used, think about referring to the same thing (e.g. Gilo), but with a more favorable description (e.g. "suburb"). Consider calling settlements "communities" or "villages". Use the same names back; if somebody talks about Sharon's "war crimes", talk about Arafat's war crimes and involvement in terror.
These techniques form the nucleus of a thousand and one edit wars at Wikipedia, and not only between the pro- and anti-Zionists. Wikipedia is like a giant sandbox for the honing of propaganda skills.
Dzonatas
QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Thu 19th February 2009, 11:37pm) *

These techniques form the nucleus of a thousand and one edit wars at Wikipedia, and not only between the pro- and anti-Zionists. Wikipedia is like a giant sandbox for the honing of propaganda skills.


That would be under the section on Bandwagon... page 26:

QUOTE

Bandwagon
Most people, when in doubt, are happy to do what other people are doing. This is the
bandwagon effect. People are happy to be part of the crowd, and subtle manipulators can
play on this desire by emphasizing the large size of their support. Although it is reasonable
that people are given a chance to find out how many other supporters a speaker or movement
has, often it is possible to create the impression of extensive support - through gathering all
supporters in one place, or through poorly conducted opinion polls - in an attempt to persuade
people who are keen to follow the crowd.
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