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Emperor
Person A gets bitten by a bat, searches Google, and follows the #1 link to Wikipedia:
QUOTE
Rabies (pronounced /ˈreɪbiːz/. From Latin: rabies. Also known as “hydrophobia”) is a viral zoonotic neuroinvasive disease that causes acute encephalitis (inflammation of the brain) in mammals. It is most commonly caused by a bite from an infected animal, but occasionally by other forms of contact. It is fatal if left untreated. In some countries it is a significant killer of livestock.

The rabies virus makes its way to the brain by following the peripheral nerves. The incubation period of the disease depends on how far the virus must travel to reach the central nervous system, usually taking a few months.[1] Once the infection reaches the central nervous system and symptoms begin to show, the untreated infection is usually fatal within days.

In the beginning stages of rabies, the symptoms are malaise, headache, and fever, while in later stages it includes acute pain, violent movements, uncontrolled excitements, depressions, and the inability to swallow water (hence the name hydrophobia). In the final stages, the patient begins to have periods of mania and lethargy, and coma. Death generally occurs due to respiratory insufficiency.[1]
(emphasis mine)

"Oh well," he thinks, "The bat probably didn't have rabies, and even if it did, if by some oddball chance I actually get rabies and need to go to the doctor it's only the untreated infection which is usually fatal. I can just get the treatment and all will be well."

Person B gets bitten by the same bat. He uses Live Search, following the first link to content from the Mayo Clinic. There he reads:

QUOTE
Rabies is a deadly virus spread to people from the saliva of infected animals. The rabies virus is usually transmitted through a bite.

Animals most likely to transmit rabies in the United States include bats, coyotes, foxes, raccoons and skunks. In developing countries of Africa and Southeast Asia, stray dogs are the most likely to spread rabies to people.

Once a person begins showing signs and symptoms of rabies, the disease is nearly always fatal. For that reason, vaccines to stop the rabies virus from infecting the body are given to anyone who may have a risk of contracting rabies.
(emphasis mine)

"Oh crap," he says, "I'd better get to a doctor!"
Milton Roe
QUOTE(Emperor @ Fri 13th March 2009, 6:43pm) *

Person A gets bitten by a bat, searches Google, and follows the #1 link to Wikipedia:
QUOTE
Rabies (pronounced /ˈreɪbiːz/. From Latin: rabies. Also known as “hydrophobia”) is a viral zoonotic neuroinvasive disease that causes acute encephalitis (inflammation of the brain) in mammals. It is most commonly caused by a bite from an infected animal, but occasionally by other forms of contact. It is fatal if left untreated. In some countries it is a significant killer of livestock.

The rabies virus makes its way to the brain by following the peripheral nerves. The incubation period of the disease depends on how far the virus must travel to reach the central nervous system, usually taking a few months.[1] Once the infection reaches the central nervous system and symptoms begin to show, the untreated infection is usually fatal within days.

In the beginning stages of rabies, the symptoms are malaise, headache, and fever, while in later stages it includes acute pain, violent movements, uncontrolled excitements, depressions, and the inability to swallow water (hence the name hydrophobia). In the final stages, the patient begins to have periods of mania and lethargy, and coma. Death generally occurs due to respiratory insufficiency.[1]
(emphasis mine)

"Oh well," he thinks, "The bat probably didn't have rabies, and even if it did, if by some oddball chance I actually get rabies and need to go to the doctor it's only the untreated infection which is usually fatal. I can just get the treatment and all will be well."

Person B gets bitten by the same bat. He uses Live Search, following the first link to content from the Mayo Clinic. There he reads:

QUOTE
Rabies is a deadly virus spread to people from the saliva of infected animals. The rabies virus is usually transmitted through a bite.

Animals most likely to transmit rabies in the United States include bats, coyotes, foxes, raccoons and skunks. In developing countries of Africa and Southeast Asia, stray dogs are the most likely to spread rabies to people.

Once a person begins showing signs and symptoms of rabies, the disease is nearly always fatal. For that reason, vaccines to stop the rabies virus from infecting the body are given to anyone who may have a risk of contracting rabies.
(emphasis mine)

"Oh crap," he says, "I'd better get to a doctor!"

Good pickup. In fact, neither one of these are very good at eplaining the problem. Yes, vaccines are given to those who have a risk of contracting rabies, but that includes just at-risk people who explore caves and so on. Our hypothetical guy is interested in treatment for a bite, where he's going to need more. Not only vaccine, but (more importantly) hyperimmune globulin, because by then it may be too even for a vaccine to do any good (though it's worth doing, and is how Pasteur saved lives).

"People who are bitten by animals which may have rabies must see a doctor immediately for preventive treatment, since treatment does not work once symptoms begin, and by then the disease will be fatal, with few exceptions. Early treatment to prevent disease from a bite involves not only vaccination but immediate injection of virus-neutralizing antibodies into the wound and also into the system. The sooner this is done, the better."
Luís Henrique
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Fri 13th March 2009, 11:33pm) *
with few exceptions. Early treatment to prevent disease from a bite involves not only vaccination but immediate injection of virus-neutralizing antibodies into the wound and also into the system. The sooner this is done, the better."


Are there any exceptions? The only I have heard of is quite contested; a woman who was treated by literally immersing her brain in immune serum - but many physicians believe she hadn't rabies first place.

Luís Henrique
Emperor
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Fri 13th March 2009, 10:33pm) *

Good pickup. In fact, neither one of these are very good at eplaining the problem. Yes, vaccines are given to those who have a risk of contracting rabies, but that includes just at-risk people who explore caves and so on. Our hypothetical guy is interested in treatment for a bite, where he's going to need more. Not only vaccine, but (more importantly) hyperimmune globulin, because by then it may be too even for a vaccine to do any good (though it's worth doing, and is how Pasteur saved lives).

"People who are bitten by animals which may have rabies must see a doctor immediately for preventive treatment, since treatment does not work once symptoms begin, and by then the disease will be fatal, with few exceptions. Early treatment to prevent disease from a bite involves not only vaccination but immediate injection of virus-neutralizing antibodies into the wound and also into the system. The sooner this is done, the better."

Thanks. Mayo has a good "When to see a doctor" section slightly farther down the page, but in the interest of comparing just intros I left it out. Your version's pretty good too.

By the way, what percentage of Wikipedia readers do you suppose knows the word "zoonotic"?

QUOTE(Mayo)
When to see a doctor
Seek immediate medical care if you're bitten by any animal. Based on your injuries and situation in which the bite occurred, you and your doctor can decide whether you should receive treatment to prevent rabies.

If you aren't sure whether you've been bitten, seek medical attention. For instance, a bat that flies into your room while you're sleeping may bite you without awaking you. If you awake to find a bat in your room, assume you've been bitten. Also if you find a bat near a person who can't report a bite, such as a small child or disabled person, assume that person has been bitten.
wikiwhistle
QUOTE(Luís Henrique @ Sat 14th March 2009, 2:48am) *

Are there any exceptions? The only I have heard of is quite contested; a woman who was treated by literally immersing her brain in immune serum - but many physicians believe she hadn't rabies first place.

Luís Henrique


The "documentary" made about it made much of her being put into a coma, as that's the most dramatic bit. According to the BBC, a few other people have also survived rabies but they'd had the vaccine after contracting it.

The results obtained are so rare, with tenuous proof and risky that it's better to focus on prevention rather than using this "Milwaukee protocol."
dtobias
If you have reason to believe you may have something fatal, you should consult your doctor about it rather than relying on any Web site.
Emperor
QUOTE(dtobias @ Sat 14th March 2009, 10:18am) *

If you have reason to believe you may have something fatal, you should consult your doctor about it rather than relying on any Web site.


Isn't this a reach, even for you?

The point that most responsible publications try to get across is that although you might think that bat bite is just a scratch, you'd better haul ass to a doctor anyway. Wikipedia fails miserably at getting this point across, and even encourages people to wait by giving them false reassurance that should they develop a problem, the disease is somehow treatable.
CharlotteWebb
QUOTE

It is fatal if left untreated.

Once the infection reaches the central nervous system and symptoms begin to show, the untreated infection is usually fatal within days.


QUOTE

Once a person begins showing signs and symptoms of rabies, the disease is nearly always fatal. For that reason, vaccines to stop the rabies virus from infecting the body are given to anyone who may have a risk of contracting rabies.


I don't think any significant disagreement was intended here. The first passage says "once [...] symptoms begin to show, the untreated infection is usually fatal", which means that if the infection is not treated, the person will in fact develop symptoms and probably die.

But I do agree this should be re-worded to make it clearer that treatment tends to be futile once you know you need it. Most of the information is there but in the wrong order.

For what it's worth the top editors of the article do include User:Joelmills who identifies as a practicing veterinarian. Here's what it looked like upon his last edit to the page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=231818588
QUOTE

In non-vaccinated humans, rabies is almost invariably fatal after neurological symptoms have developed, but prompt post-exposure vaccination may prevent the virus from progressing. There are only six known cases of a person surviving symptomatic rabies, and only one known case of survival in which the patient received no rabies-specific treatment either before or after illness onset.[1]

Big difference eh? Might be worth a wholesale revert, but knowing which version to use is the greater part of the challenge. FlaggedRevs would help with that.

On a side note I wonder how much the "clean up the lead section" template (seen in the old version link above) contributed to the article's decline.
gomi
QUOTE(Emperor @ Sat 14th March 2009, 8:48am) *
QUOTE(dtobias @ Sat 14th March 2009, 10:18am) *
If you have reason to believe you may have something fatal, you should consult your doctor about it rather than relying on any Web site.

The point that most responsible publications try to get across is ... you'd better haul ass to a doctor anyway. Wikipedia fails miserably at getting this point across, and even encourages people to wait ...

It is tempting to suggest that people who rely on Wikipedia for medical advice should be removed from the gene pool in any case.
wikiwhistle
Yes, maybe candidates for the darwin awards lol smile.gif
Casliber
no rabies in Australia biggrin.gif ...but seriously, some prose massage looks in order......
Emperor
QUOTE(Casliber @ Tue 17th March 2009, 6:15am) *

no rabies in Australia biggrin.gif ...but seriously, some prose massage looks in order......


They're calling it Australian Bat Lyssavirus. Whatever, if they want to live in their fantasy world.
Milton Roe
QUOTE(Emperor @ Tue 17th March 2009, 5:14am) *

QUOTE(Casliber @ Tue 17th March 2009, 6:15am) *

no rabies in Australia biggrin.gif ...but seriously, some prose massage looks in order......


They're calling it Australian Bat Lyssavirus. Whatever, if they want to live in their fantasy world.

Well, it's not exactly rabies but a close rabies cousin carried by bats and transmissable to humans where it is fatal, and for all other intents and purposes, it might as well be rabies (vaccine and antibodies to rabies should be protective againsty Lyssavirus). Perhaps it would be fairer to say there's no rabies in Australian ground animals, but there is a close rabies cousin in bats, which should treated the same.

This is not a small distiction, as it has a big impact on pet vaccination in Australia, and the danger from wild-ground animal reservoirs, which is considerable in other countries, is thought not to exist in Austalia. The Lyssavirus occurs in both fruit and insect eating bats, but they apparently don't do much biting of the Australian wild-animal ground population. (If Australia has a vampire type bat, it plays no role here). At least, I cannot find evidence that the virus has spread from bats to any other reservoir.
Casliber
Good to know, given there are fruit bats everywhere, even in the middle of Sydney.... wtf.gif
EricBarbour
Hah. Rabies.

I'm originally from New Mexico.
Ya know what they've got in New Mexico?

Plague.

QUOTE
In the U.S., about half of all food cases of plague since 1970 have occurred in New Mexico. There were 2 plague deaths in the state in 2006, the first fatalities in 12 years.[29]


(They also have this, but it's spreading all over the southwest U.S.)
Gold heart
QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Sat 14th March 2009, 5:42pm) *

For what it's worth the top editors of the article do include User:Joelmills who identifies as a practicing veterinarian. Here's what it looked like upon his last edit to the page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=231818588
QUOTE

In non-vaccinated humans, rabies is almost invariably fatal after neurological symptoms have developed, but prompt post-exposure vaccination may prevent the virus from progressing. There are only six known cases of a person surviving symptomatic rabies, and only one known case of survival in which the patient received no rabies-specific treatment either before or after illness onset.[1]


And the vaccine has to be readministered about once a year to remain effective, as a veterinarian mate of mine must do; and seemingly missing from the article. An issue here is that most people don't go to their doctor seeking "rabies advice", and will pick it up from journals, and the likes of WP.
Emperor
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Tue 17th March 2009, 4:48pm) *

This is not a small distiction, as it has a big impact on pet vaccination in Australia, and the danger from wild-ground animal reservoirs, which is considerable in other countries, is thought not to exist in Austalia. The Lyssavirus occurs in both fruit and insect eating bats, but they apparently don't do much biting of the Australian wild-animal ground population. (If Australia has a vampire type bat, it plays no role here). At least, I cannot find evidence that the virus has spread from bats to any other reservoir.


Good point. It's just fun to tease the Australians, because they're so proud of being "rabies free".

Walter Sobchak: What the fuck are you talking about? The chinaman is not the issue here, Dude. I'm talking about drawing a line in the sand, Dude. Across this line, you DO NOT... Also, Dude, chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature. Asian-American, please.
The Dude: Walter, this isn't a guy who built the railroads here. This is a guy...
Walter Sobchak: What the fuck are you...?
The Dude: Walter, he peed on my rug!




Milton Roe
QUOTE(Gold heart @ Wed 18th March 2009, 7:55pm) *

And the vaccine has to be readministered about once a year to remain effective, as a veterinarian mate of mine must do; and seemingly missing from the article. An issue here is that most people don't go to their doctor seeking "rabies advice", and will pick it up from journals, and the likes of WP.

No, I think you're working on old info. After the immunizing course of 3-5 shots, you should be more or less immune to rabies for life*, with boosters only recommended for extremely high risk people (animal control people, spelunkers, etc). I wouldn't think a vet would need one more often than every 5 or 10 years. Nobody really knows-- this is based on guesses from antibody levels.

* Even a vaccinated person, if bitten, is recommended to get two more vaccine doses-- one immediately and one in 3 days. This is an improvement over needing the full 5 shot course if you're bitten while unvaccinated, plus immune globulin.
Gold heart
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Thu 19th March 2009, 4:32am) *

QUOTE(Gold heart @ Wed 18th March 2009, 7:55pm) *

And the vaccine has to be readministered about once a year to remain effective, as a veterinarian mate of mine must do; and seemingly missing from the article. An issue here is that most people don't go to their doctor seeking "rabies advice", and will pick it up from journals, and the likes of WP.

No, I think you're working on old info. After the immunizing course of 3-5 shots, you should be more or less immune to rabies for life*, with boosters only recommended for extremely high risk people (animal control people, spelunkers, etc). I wouldn't think a vet would need one more often than every 5 or 10 years. Nobody really knows-- this is based on guesses from antibody levels.

* Even a vaccinated person, if bitten, is recommended to get two more vaccine doses-- one immediately and one in 3 days. This is an improvement over needing the full 5 shot course if you're bitten while unvaccinated, plus immune globulin.

That's interesting, maybe he's making "doubly sure". I used to think it was every 18 months, but just for the interest I'll ask him next time we talk. He works in North America, and not local. Our last case here was about 1906, afaik.
Milton Roe
QUOTE(Gold heart @ Wed 18th March 2009, 10:01pm) *

QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Thu 19th March 2009, 4:32am) *

QUOTE(Gold heart @ Wed 18th March 2009, 7:55pm) *

And the vaccine has to be readministered about once a year to remain effective, as a veterinarian mate of mine must do; and seemingly missing from the article. An issue here is that most people don't go to their doctor seeking "rabies advice", and will pick it up from journals, and the likes of WP.

No, I think you're working on old info. After the immunizing course of 3-5 shots, you should be more or less immune to rabies for life*, with boosters only recommended for extremely high risk people (animal control people, spelunkers, etc). I wouldn't think a vet would need one more often than every 5 or 10 years. Nobody really knows-- this is based on guesses from antibody levels.

* Even a vaccinated person, if bitten, is recommended to get two more vaccine doses-- one immediately and one in 3 days. This is an improvement over needing the full 5 shot course if you're bitten while unvaccinated, plus immune globulin.

That's interesting, maybe he's making "doubly sure". I used to think it was every 18 months, but just for the interest I'll ask him next time we talk. He works in North America, and not local. Our last case here was about 1906, afaik.

If he's making "doubly sure" he's doing it very expensively, since the stuff is about $400 for a series of 3 shots, which are usually given to young veterinarians are at 1, 8, and 22 days (that is, 3 shots over 3 weeks, given at week 0, 1 and 3). Then no more. So the whole thing is screwy.

There are about 3 cases of (of course fatal) rabies in humans per year in the US, about 2 out of every 3 associated with bat bites.
Gold heart
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Thu 19th March 2009, 6:03am) *

QUOTE(Gold heart @ Wed 18th March 2009, 10:01pm) *

QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Thu 19th March 2009, 4:32am) *

QUOTE(Gold heart @ Wed 18th March 2009, 7:55pm) *

And the vaccine has to be readministered about once a year to remain effective, as a veterinarian mate of mine must do; and seemingly missing from the article. An issue here is that most people don't go to their doctor seeking "rabies advice", and will pick it up from journals, and the likes of WP.

No, I think you're working on old info. After the immunizing course of 3-5 shots, you should be more or less immune to rabies for life*, with boosters only recommended for extremely high risk people (animal control people, spelunkers, etc). I wouldn't think a vet would need one more often than every 5 or 10 years. Nobody really knows-- this is based on guesses from antibody levels.

* Even a vaccinated person, if bitten, is recommended to get two more vaccine doses-- one immediately and one in 3 days. This is an improvement over needing the full 5 shot course if you're bitten while unvaccinated, plus immune globulin.

That's interesting, maybe he's making "doubly sure". I used to think it was every 18 months, but just for the interest I'll ask him next time we talk. He works in North America, and not local. Our last case here was about 1906, afaik.

If he's making "doubly sure" he's doing it very expensively, since the stuff is about $400 for a series of 3 shots, which are usually given to young veterinarians are at 1, 8, and 22 days (that is, 3 shots over 3 weeks, given at week 0, 1 and 3). Then no more. So the whole thing is screwy.

There are about 3 cases of (of course fatal) rabies in humans per year in the US, about 2 out of every 3 associated with bat bites.

It's more a booster dose, and came accross this on the www, and it mentions every two years. $400 is a lot of dosh, the cost is probably only about $30, but that's a guess. Domestic cats commonly carry, that's where the big danger is.
LamontStormstar
I remember the old Beavis & Butthead episode where Beavis was bitten by a crazed dog, he showed the bite-off at school. Butthead cleaned the wound by pouring a sports drink in it, and said, "sports drinks have nutrients". Later Beavis went to the doctor. The doctor didn't want to do a rabies cure but then Beavis popped an alka-seltzer into his mouth, his mouth foamed like mad, and he shouted "RABIES!!!!"
Luís Henrique
On the other hand, is it true that you can get rabies by editing Wikipedia?

Luís Henrique
Milton Roe
QUOTE(Gold heart @ Wed 18th March 2009, 11:19pm) *

It's more a booster dose, and came accross this on the www, and it mentions every two years. $400 is a lot of dosh, the cost is probably only about $30, but that's a guess. Domestic cats commonly carry, that's where the big danger is.

That's a useful link on the titer testing. They have a more sophisticated recommendation based on that, and whether a vet works in an endemic area.

The cost isn't dosh.
http://prod.hopkins-abxguide.org/vaccines/...0289&siteId=153
The human diploid vaccine (Imovax) or chick embryo vaccine (RabAvert) is expensive as hell: $150 a dose at least. It's animal vaccines that are cheap.

Cats are not "carriers". No animals are rabies "carriers." Any animal with rabies is dying, and will die shortly (in few weeks at most). That includes bats. It's fatal in all species.
SmashTheState
QUOTE(LamontStormstar @ Sat 21st March 2009, 2:36am) *

I remember the old Beavis & Butthead episode where Beavis was bitten by a crazed dog, he showed the bite-off at school. Butthead cleaned the wound by pouring a sports drink in it, and said, "sports drinks have nutrients". Later Beavis went to the doctor. The doctor didn't want to do a rabies cure but then Beavis popped an alka-seltzer into his mouth, his mouth foamed like mad, and he shouted "RABIES!!!!"


Working on a "Rabies in Popular Culture" section?
Gold heart
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Mon 23rd March 2009, 1:51am) *

QUOTE(Gold heart @ Wed 18th March 2009, 11:19pm) *

It's more a booster dose, and came accross this on the www, and it mentions every two years. $400 is a lot of dosh, the cost is probably only about $30, but that's a guess. Domestic cats commonly carry, that's where the big danger is.

That's a useful link on the titer testing. They have a more sophisticated recommendation based on that, and whether a vet works in an endemic area.

The cost isn't dosh.
http://prod.hopkins-abxguide.org/vaccines/...0289&siteId=153
The human diploid vaccine (Imovax) or chick embryo vaccine (RabAvert) is expensive as hell: $150 a dose at least. It's animal vaccines that are cheap.

Cats are not "carriers". No animals are rabies "carriers." Any animal with rabies is dying, and will die shortly (in few weeks at most). That includes bats. It's fatal in all species.

Apparently, the human vaccine will last a few years at least. The person at risk would then have his/her rabies anti-bodies accessed about 2 years after the initial vaccine, and again once a year. The risk is that there may be a reaction against unnecessary vaccine, so caution is preferred. A pet animal could have rabies unknown to the owners, and before symptoms would show, and could very well carry the disease to humans. "True carriers" have not been identified. Animal species are sometimes referred to as "carriers", such as skunks, whether we agree or not.
Emperor
I just checked in on the article, and they still can't get it quite right.

QUOTE(http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rabies&oldid=331833746)
Rabies is almost invariably fatal if post-exposure prophylaxis is not administered prior to the onset of severe symptoms.


"severe symptoms" implies that a person might survive mild symptoms, which is not true.
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