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the fieryangel
Off of the Wikimedia blog:


QUOTE
Vote on Wikimedia licensing update underway
April 14th, 2009

One of the core principles under which Wikipedia and all other Wikimedia Foundation projects operate is that the knowledge contributed by hundreds of thousands of volunteers shouldn’t be locked into our servers. People should be able to re-use and re-purpose it in countless useful ways, commercial or non-commercial, to ensure that our work reaches the largest possible number of people. And from online mirrors to DVD editions to printed books to mobile versions, this basic principle has allowed knowledge to flow freely across all media.

When authors don’t make an explicit licensing choice, this isn’t possible: as an author, copyright law gives you maximal “protection”, unless you grant usage rights to others. Because the Wikimedia projects are an open collaboration, this grant of rights is requested from all contributors: When you make an edit to Wikipedia or most of our other projects, you’re asked to release it under a license that gives others, essentially, the right to use it for any purpose, as long as they provide credit to the authors and make any improvements freely available.

There are standard licensing documents that enumerate the rights and obligations of re-users. When Wikipedia started in January 2001, the project chose the GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) developed for freely usable software documentation. The idea of giving information other than software freely away in this fashion was still relatively novel at the time, and so it made sense to adopt a license that had been developed by the free software community, which at the time could already look back on a long tradition of sharing cultural works freely.

However, because it was developed specifically for (typically printed) documentation, the GFDL contains many passages that aren’t relevant to an online work like Wikipedia, and it also contains obligations that, when taken literally, are quite onerous. For example, it requires that the full text of the license accompany every copy of the work, and it also requires that the section entitled “history” be included with each copy. (For Wikipedia, a massively edited work, this history of changes is often much larger than the work itself.) While Wikipedia has developed a long practice of interpreting this language to facilitate easy re-use, the literal text of the license has baffled many re-users and confused them about what they can and cannot do.

In 2002, a newly formed non-profit organization called Creative Commons released a set of standardized licensing agreements to flexibly grant rights to re-users (the right to make copies, the right to commercial use, the right to distribute modified versions of a document, etc.). These licensing agreements have found rapid adoption by a growing community of authors. For example, the popular photo-sharing site Flickr integrated the option to choose one of the Creative Commons licenses directly into its uploading interface, and thousands of users have granted more permissive rights to re-users than standard copyright would give. Last month, Flickr celebrated that more than 100 million photos had been uploaded under one of the CC licenses.

Importantly, some of the CC licenses are significantly more restrictive than what Wikimedia permits: unlike Wikimedia, they restrict commercial re-use, or limit the creation of derivatives. (In the case of a photo, that would include embedding the photo into a video sequence, for example.) One license, however, is very similar to the GNU Free Documentation License in its fundamental spirit and intent: the Creative Commons Attribution/Share-Alike License.

Unlike the GFDL, CC-BY-SA allows simply referencing the license text instead of including it with each copy, and it does not require copying an entire history of changes with each document. And, it’s not a license written for software documentation, but for any kind of work. Moreover, it’s been specifically adapted to many international jurisdictions, and there are official translations in many languages. A more detailed comparison is available.

Because many people consider it more suitable for works other than software documentation than the GFDL, it’s also been widely adopted. Projects like WikiEducator, Citizendium, the Encyclopedia of Earth, the Encyclopedia of Life, and many others use CC-BY-SA as a content license. While GFDL and CC-BY-SA are very similar, text under one license cannot be integrated into text under another. This incompatibility barrier has presented a growing problem: As other communities have started to share knowledge freely, Wikimedia has lacked interoperability to be able to take from them, and give to them.

As early as 2004, first discussions began about harmonizing the Wikimedia license. Last year, the Free Software Foundation released a new version of the GFDL, 1.3, which specifically allows massively collaborative websites like the Wikimedia projects to also license content under CC-BY-SA. This option was developed by the Free Software Foundation in answer to a request by the Wikimedia Foundation. The request included a commitment by the Wikimedia Foundation to consult its community of volunteers before actually implementing any change.

After months of open discussion and development of the specific licensing terms under which Wikimedia content will be available, the Wikimedia community is now encouraged to vote on a proposal for updating the Wikimedia Foundation licensing terms on projects which currently use the GFDL. Rather than eliminating the GFDL entirely, the proposal will retain it where possible, while also making content available under CC-BY-SA and allowing it to be imported. If the proposal is implemented, licensing terms on all projects in all languages will be standardized where the GFDL is currently use. This standardization will also create clear and understandable terms and conditions for re-users who want to remix information from our projects.

In order to vote, users who have made more than 25 edits prior to March 15, 2009 on any Wikimedia project can visit a special page which will transfer them to a third party server (the page is linked from a notice on top of all pages for logged in users). The server is administered by Software in the Public Interest, Inc. (SPI) to guarantee the integrity of the vote. The vote will be tallied by a licensing committee made of Wikimedia volunteers. It will be concluded by May 3, 2009. After the vote result is published, the Board of Trustees of the Wikimedia Foundation will consult regarding the outcome of the vote and next steps.

The Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees has published a clear position statement: “The Board has evaluated possible licensing options for Wikimedia material, and believes that this proposal is the best available path towards achieving our collective goal to collect, develop and disseminate educational material, and make it available to people everywhere, free of charge, in perpetuity.”

Erik Moeller
Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation


I'm still reflecting as what the best course of action for me personally concerning this might be, however I must say that I will not simply accept that my personal edits are simply "switched over" to this new license without having any say in that (since I'm "community banned"). I'm considering writing Mike Godwin and asking that all of my edits be deleted from the servers, which would probably be the only way to resolve this properly for me.

Thoughts?
KamrynMatika
This is weird. Are they really allowed to change the license of something someone has written on the basis that a majority of a community of gibbering idiots says so? "Sorry, I know you licensed this under GFDL, but we have a large group of 14-16 year olds and unemployed mental cases who think it should be Creative Commons. Sucks to be you biggrin.gif"

I don't really care one way or the other about my own edits, but I would be muchly entertained if someone kicked up a big fuss over this.
GlassBeadGame
QUOTE(the fieryangel @ Tue 14th April 2009, 4:24am) *



I'm still reflecting as what the best course of action for me personally concerning this might be, however I must say that I will not simply accept that my personal edits are simply "switched over" to this new license without having any say in that (since I'm "community banned"). I'm considering writing Mike Godwin and asking that all of my edits be deleted from the servers, which would probably be the only way to resolve this properly for me.

Thoughts?



Are they proposing altering the license going forward for material newly added after a date certain or actual suggesting that they might retrospectively alter the terms of the license granted by thousands of atomized contributors through a vote?
Son of a Yeti
QUOTE(KamrynMatika @ Tue 14th April 2009, 4:59am) *

This is weird. Are they really allowed to change the license of something someone has written on the basis that a majority of a community of gibbering idiots says so? "Sorry, I know you licensed this under GFDL, but we have a large group of 14-16 year olds and unemployed mental cases who think it should be Creative Commons. Sucks to be you biggrin.gif"

I don't really care one way or the other about my own edits, but I would be muchly entertained if someone kicked up a big fuss over this.


I do not think it's legal to change the license someone used filing his own copyrightable body of work under the US, EU and most civilized laws.

However, it may be legal in parts of Somalia and/or Sudan. Is there a plan to move Wikimedia to one of the failed states?
the fieryangel
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Tue 14th April 2009, 12:15pm) *

Are they proposing altering the license going forward for material newly added after a date certain or actual suggesting that they might retrospectively alter the terms of the license granted by thousands of atomized contributors through a vote?


This paragraph suggests that ALL content will be switched to a dual license on projects that use the GFDL:

QUOTE
After months of open discussion and development of the specific licensing terms under which Wikimedia content will be available, the Wikimedia community is now encouraged to vote on a proposal for updating the Wikimedia Foundation licensing terms on projects which currently use the GFDL. Rather than eliminating the GFDL entirely, the proposal will retain it where possible, while also making content available under CC-BY-SA and allowing it to be imported. If the proposal is implemented, licensing terms on all projects in all languages will be standardized where the GFDL is currently use. This standardization will also create clear and understandable terms and conditions for re-users who want to remix information from our projects.


If I'm not mistaken in my reading and this is the case, then it would appear that people who made contributions under the GFDL won't have a choice: since all content will be under this dual license. It would appear that people would be able to take something in GFDL, change it or simply copy it and then call it CC-BY-SA.

I don't see how this could be done legally, but I'm not a lawyer. This is what I understand, but maybe there's something that I'm missing here.
GlassBeadGame
There is a provision of GFDL that permits retrospective modificatons:

QUOTE
10. FUTURE REVISIONS OF THIS LICENSE

The Free Software Foundation may publish new, revised versions of the GNU Free Documentation License from time to time. Such new versions will be similar in spirit to the present version, but may differ in detail to address new problems or concerns. See http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/.

Each version of the License is given a distinguishing version number. If the Document specifies that a particular numbered version of this License "or any later version" applies to it, you have the option of following the terms and conditions either of that specified version or of any later version that has been published (not as a draft) by the Free Software Foundation. If the Document does not specify a version number of this License, you may choose any version ever published (not as a draft) by the Free Software Foundation. If the Document specifies that a proxy can decide which future versions of this License can be used, that proxy's public statement of acceptance of a version permanently authorizes you to choose that version for the Document.

V 1.3


Similar language is found in earlier versions

QUOTE
10. FUTURE REVISIONS OF THIS LICENSE

The Free Software Foundation may publish new, revised versions of the GNU Free Documentation License from time to time. Such new versions will be similar in spirit to the present version, but may differ in detail to address new problems or concerns. See http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/.

Each version of the License is given a distinguishing version number. If the Document specifies that a particular numbered version of this License "or any later version" applies to it, you have the option of following the terms and conditions either of that specified version or of any later version that has been published (not as a draft) by the Free Software Foundation. If the Document does not specify a version number of this License, you may choose any version ever published (not as a draft) by the Free Software Foundation.

V 1.1


The license that is used by WMF says:

QUOTE
10. FUTURE REVISIONS OF THIS LICENSE

The Free Software Foundation may publish new, revised versions of the GNU Free Documentation License from time to time. Such new versions will be similar in spirit to the present version, but may differ in detail to address new problems or concerns. See http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/.

Each version of the License is given a distinguishing version number. If the Document specifies that a particular numbered version of this License "or any later version" applies to it, you have the option of following the terms and conditions either of that specified version or of any later version that has been published (not as a draft) by the Free Software Foundation. If the Document does not specify a version number of this License, you may choose any version ever published (not as a draft) by the Free Software Foundation.


WMF does not specify a version number. Presumably they don't use use this provision because they can't get Stallman to cooperate with their needs?
Moulton
QUOTE(the fieryangel @ Tue 14th April 2009, 8:35am) *
I don't see how this could be done legally, but I'm not a lawyer. This is what I understand, but maybe there's something that I'm missing here.

This conundrum appears to be a test of Moulton's Law.
Moulton's Law: Once a bureaucracy makes a mistake, it can't be fixed. Ever.
the fieryangel
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Tue 14th April 2009, 12:44pm) *

WMF does not specify a version number. Presumably they don't use use this provision because they can't get Stallman to cooperate with their needs?


Here's a blogpost which discusses the changes in the GFDL 1.3 version, as well as the situation before.

Clause 10 and 11 are the important ones.

QUOTE
Clause 10


Clause 10 introduces another change introduced in the GPLv3, that a licensor may appoint a proxy to determine whether the licensed work can be relicensed. This is important because generally, only the copyright owner may change the licence. By appointing a single proxy (or a small number of proxies), members of a community can ensure that their code or text is able to be relicensed under future versions but does not automatically version up - a protection against potential tyrranical practices by the FSF.

If the Document specifies that a proxy can decide which future versions of this License can be used, that proxy's public statement of acceptance of a version permanently authorizes you to choose that version for the Document.

Clause 11


Clause 11 is the important one for Wikipedia. This is the clause which allows one-way relicensing under CC BY-SA 3.0. It is limited in a number of ways:

1.
Only applies to a “Massive Multiauthor Collaboration Site”, which must be a web “server that publishes copyrightable works and also provides prominent facilities for anybody to edit those works” - a wiki is given as an example of such a site. I'm guessing that the word 'anybody' here is not meant to be absolute, but it seems a bit ambiguous. Some people, after all, are banned or cannot access wikipedia.
2.
Only applies to CC BY-SA 3.0. Importantly, 3.0 SA has it's own version up clause and allows relicensing under the various jurisdiction licences.
3.
Does not apply to any works which use invariant sections or cover texts (apparently, unless those invariant sections or cover texts were imposed by the wiki ('MMC Site') originally - not much of a distinction, wikipedia doesn't use invariant sections or cover texts).
4.
Only applies to works which are incorporated into the wiki prior to 01 November 2008. This restriction means that one cannot take a software manual licensed under the GFDL and post it on a public wiki and then relicense it under CC BY-SA. It is said to prevent 'gaming' of the system. This time limit only applies to works first published elsewhere and then incorporated on the wiki. There is no restriction for works which are first published on the wiki that wishes to relicence. This means that for wikipedia, there should now be an effective freeze on new additions of GFDL material which has been published elsewhere. New edits under the GFDL will still be able to be relicensed, but edits sourced from elsewhere will not.
5.
Only the 'operator' may relicense. No dice if we want to take a DB dump of wikipedia and release ourselves. Interestingly, a wiki that forked before 01 November 2008 should be able to relicense regardless of whether wikipedia does; new forks may not relicense.
6.
the 'operator' must relicense before 01 August 2009. The option will not be available after that.

“Massive Multiauthor Collaboration Site” (or “MMC Site”) means any World Wide Web server that publishes copyrightable works and also provides prominent facilities for anybody to edit those works. A public wiki that anybody can edit is an example of such a server. A “Massive Multiauthor Collaboration” (or “MMC”) contained in the site means any set of copyrightable works thus published on the MMC site.
“CC-BY-SA” means the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 license published by Creative Commons Corporation, a not-for-profit corporation with a principal place of business in San Francisco, California, as well as future copyleft versions of that license published by that same organization.
“Incorporate” means to publish or republish a Document, in whole or in part, as part of another Document.
An MMC is “eligible for relicensing” if it is licensed under this License, and if all works that were first published under this License somewhere other than this MMC, and subsequently incorporated in whole or in part into the MMC, (1) had no cover texts or invariant sections, and (2) were thus incorporated prior to November 1, 2008.
The operator of an MMC Site may republish an MMC contained in the site under CC-BY-SA on the same site at any time before August 1, 2009, provided the MMC is eligible for relicensing.


Especially for Clause 10, I do not see how this can be applied retro-actively.
GlassBeadGame
Section 11 would seem to be meant to apply wikis but it is incredibly opaque. Moeller says something about an election as part of the deal. But this does not appear in the document. But how does an election replace a series of individual grants? Because Stallman says so?

Imagine the bad judgment it would take to select a license that would permit GNU, the drafter of document, to make decisions about future changes? They have in effect made Stallman a party to each grant under the license.
the fieryangel
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Tue 14th April 2009, 1:15pm) *

Section 11 would seem to be meant to apply wikis but it is incredibly opaque. Moeller says something about an election as part of the deal. But this does not appear in the document. But how does an election replace a series of individual grants? Because Stallman says so?

Imagine the bad judgment it would take to select a license that would permit GNU, the drafter of document, to make decisions about future changes? They have in effect made Stallman a party to each grant under the license.


This is the case for ALL of these free licenses: there is always a third-party, which is the foundation/agency/whatever which puts out the license. There is no need for this, because the copyright holder already holds all of these rights. All that is necessary is to state which rights you are ceding and which rights you retain. It's not rocket science!

The lack of clarity in this current document is a great cause for concern. I would like to see someone (One, NYBrad?) with a stronger legal background to comment on this, as I really fail to see how this is going to solve any problems and could potentially create a great many more.
Jon Awbrey
Since neither Da Community nor Da Foundation honors any norms of civil society, much less formal licenses, what practical diff does it really make?

Jon Awbrey
Sarcasticidealist
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Tue 14th April 2009, 9:44am) *
WMF does not specify a version number.
The note under the edit window says that you agree to release it under the "GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant Sections, with no Front-Cover Texts, and with no Back-Cover Texts." Since, as you say, GFDL 1.3 allows for this change, the theory would be that people who have added content to Wikipedia have agreed to this by licensing their content under any post-1.2 version of the GFDL. I have no idea whether this would hold up, but I assume that actual I.P. lawyers were involved in this process, so I'm going to go with "yes".

As for the implications, as I understand it the implications are that Wikipedia finally moves to a viable license, as distinct from the GFDL, which is more or less impossible to comply with in a wiki (and nobody really seems to know what would constitute compliance anyway).
GlassBeadGame
QUOTE(Sarcasticidealist @ Tue 14th April 2009, 7:48am) *

I have no idea whether this would hold up, but I assume that actual I.P. lawyers were involved in this process, so I'm going to go with "yes".



The Wikipedia page that details the license has no mention of a version (unless it is in some unexpected section). But I think you misunderstood the effect of the lack of the expressed version number. Under Section 10 not stating the version number serves to open the door to subsequent changes. This makes the V 1.3 changes possible to incorporate. So we are actually agreeing on that point.

It is likely that the changes, especially Section 11, where the result of IP lawyers negotiating with Stallman, who is known to get kind of difficult.

FTA: Could you elaborate on how changing the licensing to CC BY SA would upset your expectations? I completely agree in principal that changing licensing in mid-stream is wrong but it becomes stronger when you can actually see the harm.
Sarcasticidealist
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Tue 14th April 2009, 11:02am) *
The Wikipedia page that details the license has no mention of a version (unless it is in some unexpected section). But I think you misunderstood the effect of the lack of the expressed version number. Under Section 10 not stating the version number serves to open the door to subsequent changes. This makes the V 1.3 changes possible to incorporate. So we are actually agreeing on that point.
Right so. Under the edit window it does say "1.2 or any later version", but I presume that that's in reference to Section 10.
gomi
QUOTE(KamrynMatika @ Tue 14th April 2009, 4:59am) *
This is weird. Are they really allowed to change the license of something someone has written on the basis that a majority of a community of gibbering idiots says so?
Not a majority of the gibbering idiots: fifty percent plus one of those who bother to vote, with the deliberate exclusion of IP addresses and those with fewer than 25 edits.

And this from the organization that refuses to use voting software for, e.g., Arbcom elections.

dogbiscuit
The simple summary was that GDFL had a special new version invented with a time limited clause to allow Wikipedia to change licence. I seem to recall that was discussed back in November last year (being too lazy to check the discussion from back then...). As the GDFL licence is that you grant the GDFL licence the licence to be changed to any old new version in the future, this seems to be in line with the licence tht Wikipedia operates under.

Whether it is ethical to change the licence in such a way that it can be changed to a different licence is another matter, though the open licensing group would probably not have much issue with switching to a licence which essentially keeps the content in the public domain and the GDFL crowd have the advantage of ditching the WMF, Jimbo, Gerard and whoever makes their life a misery over the inadequacies of GFDL for encyclopedias or assorted online tat (depending on your viewpoint).

What would be more concerning is whether the licence switch allows for a back door to switch content into a non-public controlled product, such as Wikia. I think the process assumes good faith.
Jon Awbrey
QUOTE(dogbiscuit @ Tue 14th April 2009, 11:34am) *

I think the process assumes good faith.


Then the process is an ass.

Ja Ja boing.gif
thekohser
I think a key clause is: similar in spirit to the present version.

This is where I feel a good lawyer could make hay with the conversion.

This table provides a helpful comparison of the two licenses in question.

I don't care what the proposal says, I'm voting "No" with each and every one of my 25+ edit sockpuppets, simply because a pro-child-pornography creep is advocating it.

And here's my first "receipt" to prove that I voted:

QUOTE
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thebainer
QUOTE(Sarcasticidealist @ Tue 14th April 2009, 11:48pm) *

The note under the edit window says that you agree to release it under the "GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant Sections, with no Front-Cover Texts, and with no Back-Cover Texts." Since, as you say, GFDL 1.3 allows for this change, the theory would be that people who have added content to Wikipedia have agreed to this by licensing their content under any post-1.2 version of the GFDL.


The default under the GFDL is that you publish under all versions of the licence, including any later version(s). You have the option of specifying a particular version to use, or specifying that any later version(s) may not be used.

However, because that leads to bad problems in a massively collaborative context, the Wikimedia projects simply don't permit contributors to exercise those options, just as they are not allowed to attach Invariant Sections, etc.

QUOTE(the fieryangel @ Tue 14th April 2009, 10:35pm) *

It would appear that people would be able to take something in GFDL, change it or simply copy it and then call it CC-BY-SA.


Not quite. If something was first published outside the wiki, but was republished on the wiki (in original or derivative form) prior to 1 November 2008, then it can be relicensed. Something first published elsewhere added after that date cannot be. Anything first published on the wiki (ie, an edit made to a page on the wiki) at any time can be relicensed.

Note however, that this could not apply to material first published outside the wiki that was only available under a particular version of the GFDL, or for which the author did not allow any later version to be used. These cannot be relicensed, as they are not available under GFDL-1.3.

For example, there are quite a few GFDL-1.2 only images on Commons, which will not be subject to the relicensing:

Category:GFDL-1.2

QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Tue 14th April 2009, 11:15pm) *

Moeller says something about an election as part of the deal. But this does not appear in the document.


The Board resolved in December 2007 to request that the GFDL be modified, but promised "a process of community discussion and voting" before making any decision on transition:

Resolution:License update

Of course they could change that with a later resolution, but I doubt the current members of the Board would pass such a resolution, and it would be electoral suicide to do so anyway (for the ones that are elected, at least).

QUOTE(Sarcasticidealist @ Tue 14th April 2009, 11:48pm) *

As for the implications, as I understand it the implications are that Wikipedia finally moves to a viable license, as distinct from the GFDL, which is more or less impossible to comply with in a wiki (and nobody really seems to know what would constitute compliance anyway).


Not quite. Wikinews uses CC-BY-2.5 for post 25 September 2005 content, media files on Commons and elsewhere are a different kettle of fish altogether as some GFDL-1.2 only uploads were allowed, there is all the PD material etc...

For the rest of the projects, it's not a straight move anyway. There will essentially be what you might call 'internal forks', the same content being available under CC-BY-SA and GFDL. Great for reusers who want to use CC-BY-SA. I've yet to see explained how it is proposed that imports of CC-BY-SA material are supposed to work (as this is unidirectional; CC-BY-SA and GFDL are still not compatible).
Eva Destruction
QUOTE

Sorry, you are not in the predetermined list of users authorised to vote in this election.

Luke, Brad, Flo, care to explain? Better be good.
Newyorkbrad
QUOTE(Eva Destruction @ Tue 14th April 2009, 8:33pm) *

QUOTE

Sorry, you are not in the predetermined list of users authorised to vote in this election.

Luke, Brad, Flo, care to explain? Better be good.

I don't know what this is about. The election is run from Meta, and I am only really active on English Wikipedia. (En-WP ArbCom has no jurisdiction over Meta.) Can I take it that you logged in from an account that had the required number of edits by the cut-off date?
Eva Destruction
QUOTE(Newyorkbrad @ Wed 15th April 2009, 12:40am) *

QUOTE(Eva Destruction @ Tue 14th April 2009, 8:33pm) *

QUOTE

Sorry, you are not in the predetermined list of users authorised to vote in this election.

Luke, Brad, Flo, care to explain? Better be good.

I don't know what this is about. The election is run from Meta, and I am only really active on English Wikipedia. (En-WP ArbCom has no jurisdiction over Meta.) Can I take it that you logged in from an account that had the required number of edits by the cut-off date?

The criteria is "users who have made more than 25 edits prior to March 15, 2009 on any Wikimedia project"; I have 118,415 edits on en-wiki so I assume I qualify…

(adding) Hmmm, just let me vote by following the link from Commons instead of en-wiki. Maybe just a glitch.
dtobias
I think the actual change is all for the good; the GFDL is a lousy license for things other than the narrow class of technical documentation it was devised for; the CC licenses are much better. The sneaky way the license change must be accomplished, taking advantage of a loophole in the old license permitting upgrades to newer versions of the license, combined with a contrived change in the newest GFDL license carefully crafted by the GNU people to permit a narrow window of opportunity for Wikipedia (and a handful of other projects in similar circumstances) to change the license, is problematic in the abstract, given that it would make it possible, should the GNU project decide for some weird reason to allow it, for a future version of the license to impose oppressive terms on all licensees ("Effective with GFDL 666.666, all creators of GFDL licensed works must sacrifice their first-born sons to the Gods of Open Sourcedom!").
GlassBeadGame
QUOTE(Eva Destruction @ Tue 14th April 2009, 6:43pm) *


The criteria is "users who have made more than 25 edits prior to March 15, 2009 on any Wikimedia project"; I have 118,415 edits on en-wiki so I assume I qualify…



...just barely.
Newyorkbrad
QUOTE(Eva Destruction @ Tue 14th April 2009, 8:43pm) *

The criteria is "users who have made more than 25 edits prior to March 15, 2009 on any Wikimedia project"; I have 118,415 edits on en-wiki so I assume I qualify…

I believe it was Jon Lovitz in "A League of Their Own" who so memorably said "well, this would be more."
GlassBeadGame
QUOTE(dtobias @ Tue 14th April 2009, 7:04pm) *

I think the actual change is all for the good; the GFDL is a lousy license for things other than the narrow class of technical documentation it was devised for; the CC licenses are much better. The sneaky way the license change must be accomplished, taking advantage of a loophole in the old license permitting upgrades to newer versions of the license, combined with a contrived change in the newest GFDL license carefully crafted by the GNU people to permit a narrow window of opportunity for Wikipedia (and a handful of other projects in similar circumstances) to change the license, is problematic in the abstract, given that it would make it possible, should the GNU project decide for some weird reason to allow it, for a future version of the license to impose oppressive terms on all licensees ("Effective with GFDL 666.666, all creators of GFDL licensed works must sacrifice their first-born sons to the Gods of Open Sourcedom!").


Pretty much agree. CC BY SA is much better than GFDL. This is a negotiated escape from GFDL which is just plan weird and designed for software documentation not a project where the content of the "document" was the primary object of the collaborative project. As usual the process is a sham and pretext. A project the scope of WP should have seen this coming in at the start, even if that predates CC.
One
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Wed 15th April 2009, 1:19am) *

Pretty much agree. CC BY SA is much better than GFDL. This is a negotiated escape from GFDL which is just plan weird and designed for software documentation not a project where the content of the "document" was the primary object of the collaborative project. As usual the process is a sham and pretext. A project the scope of WP should have seen this coming in at the start, even if that predates CC.

Right on. GFDL has always been a lousy license for Wikipedia. Almost insane; I seriously doubt that many of the contributors relied upon the requirement that printed copies of their articles should be accompanied with ten pages of GFDL text.

That said, I find it strange that negotiations with non-authors could allow the license to be changed this way. I doubt anyone would protest, or even come up with a sensible reason for personally opposing the change, but it seems peculiar that licenses could be legally revised by such a process. I've always been skeptical of the GFDL's enforceability--I take this as one last sign that WMF itself doesn't respect the license. Good for them.
anthony
QUOTE(dogbiscuit @ Tue 14th April 2009, 3:34pm) *

The simple summary was that GDFL had a special new version invented with a time limited clause to allow Wikipedia to change licence. I seem to recall that was discussed back in November last year (being too lazy to check the discussion from back then...). As the GDFL licence is that you grant the GDFL licence the licence to be changed to any old new version in the future, this seems to be in line with the licence tht Wikipedia operates under.


The problem is that this "simple summary" which has been floating around is inaccurate, and no full explanation has ever been given.

The change is improper and illegal, and is being justified (even explicitly in this thread by dtobias, GBG, and One) simply on the basis that "the ends justify the means".
GlassBeadGame
QUOTE(anthony @ Thu 16th April 2009, 7:43am) *

QUOTE(dogbiscuit @ Tue 14th April 2009, 3:34pm) *

The simple summary was that GDFL had a special new version invented with a time limited clause to allow Wikipedia to change licence. I seem to recall that was discussed back in November last year (being too lazy to check the discussion from back then...). As the GDFL licence is that you grant the GDFL licence the licence to be changed to any old new version in the future, this seems to be in line with the licence tht Wikipedia operates under.


The problem is that this "simple summary" which has been floating around is inaccurate, and no full explanation has ever been given.

The change is improper and illegal, and is being justified (even explicitly in this thread by dtobias, GBG, and One) simply on the basis that "the ends justify the means".


Not quite. I have indicated that I doubt the appropriateness of changing licenses in mid stream. It is just that it is very hard to find anything good to say about GFDL, beyond the virtue of dancing with the one that brought you. Section 10 of the GFDL has always given a means of changes the terms. The new Section 11 in GFDL 1.3 if simply unintelligible but "people say" say that it permits adoption of CC BY SA. This election (by "election" this I mean "vote" not "asserting a choice") is just a something made up to justify a mass collective exercise of what otherwise would amount to a series of millions of individual licencing grants. This is problematic in the extreme. This is a problem, by the way, that for all it's improvements over GFDL that I don't think CC BY SA answers. It still amounts to a series of millions of licensing grants one built on another and any legitimate means of applying any retroactive change in the future is just as hopeless. I believe that all that has been achieved is that this voting will buy Stalman's silence. But that is actually no small accomplishment.

But what nobody has explained to me is how switching from GFDL to CC BY SA would adversely impact them. I'm not says it can't be the case, but nothing comes to mind.
the fieryangel
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Tue 14th April 2009, 2:02pm) *

FTA: Could you elaborate on how changing the licensing to CC BY SA would upset your expectations? I completely agree in principal that changing licensing in mid-stream is wrong but it becomes stronger when you can actually see the harm.


It upsets my expectations because I released my contributions under a specific license. Changing the actual license is not possible under the version of the license that I actually signed. Pretending that this is only an administrative detail (regardless of how much better the CC BY SA license is for WMF use, which is not under debate here) is a dishonest "slight of hand" move that leaves an extremely bad taste in my mouth.

This is as if I went back to all of my composers and said that because they had already signed one contract with me that they had de facto signed another contract which gave me other rights than those specified in the original contract. It just doesn't work that way in the real world. I don't see how it can work this way on the web...

If they wanted an easy solution, what they should have is an "opt in" (or even better for them) and "opt out" procedure in which copyright holders who do not accept the new license change would be able to "opt out" and get their contributions taken out of the project.
Jon Awbrey
QUOTE(the fieryangel @ Thu 16th April 2009, 10:27am) *

It just doesn't work that way in the real world. I don't see how it can work this way on the web …


Logic Exercise

It doesn't work that way in the real world.
It does work that way in wiki-waki-world.
___________________________________

∴ ???

Ja Ja boing.gif
Moulton
Cartoon Physics can work any way the cartoonist desires.
Jon Awbrey
QUOTE(Moulton @ Thu 16th April 2009, 10:36am) *

Cartoon Physics can work any way the cartoonist desires.


Just think of it as Jimbo's style of Performance Art.

Ja Ja boing.gif
dogbiscuit
QUOTE(the fieryangel @ Thu 16th April 2009, 3:27pm) *

QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Tue 14th April 2009, 2:02pm) *

FTA: Could you elaborate on how changing the licensing to CC BY SA would upset your expectations? I completely agree in principal that changing licensing in mid-stream is wrong but it becomes stronger when you can actually see the harm.


It upsets my expectations because I released my contributions under a specific license. Changing the actual license is not possible under the version of the license that I actually signed. Pretending that this is only an administrative detail (regardless of how much better the CC BY SA license is for WMF use, which is not under debate here) is a dishonest "slight of hand" move that leaves an extremely bad taste in my mouth.

This is as if I went back to all of my composers and said that because they had already signed one contract with me that they had de facto signed another contract which gave me other rights than those specified in the original contract. It just doesn't work that way in the real world. I don't see how it can work this way on the web...

I think the licensing problem is in some ways simpler and wider, and it is worth recalling the response to the Great Boy Scout Scandal of 2008.

Nobody reads the licence, and nobody understands the licence which in some ways is counter-intuitive and they do not understand that the licence not only does good things (like let anyone use your work for free for good reasons) but also does bad things (like let anyone use your work for free for bad reasons). As has been mentioned before, this is not just a Wikipedia problem, but at least the likes of Flickr offer a choice of licensing which gives people a hint that there is a choice to be made.

People assume that there is a moral safeguard which simply is not there (sort of like the whole of Wikipedia), and assume that the likes of the FSF have a moral standpoint based in real world ethics, whereas they are extremists. FSF extol the virtues and are very quiet on the idea that there might be a downside to this. Similarly, Wikipedia suggests that your contributions can be edited mercilessly, but there is an assumption that this is a Good Thing, when we see that sometimes it is a Bad Thing.

When you add in clauses that allow you to change the licence in future versions, it gets worse - how can you sanely agree to a contract that you cannot yet know the terms of?
Random832
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Thu 16th April 2009, 2:08pm) *
Not quite. I have indicated that I doubt the appropriateness of changing licenses in mid stream. It is just that it is very hard to find anything good to say about GFDL, beyond the virtue of dancing with the one that brought you. Section 10 of the GFDL has always given a means of changes the terms. The new Section 11 in GFDL 1.3 if simply unintelligible but "people say" say that it permits adoption of CC BY SA. This election (by "election" this I mean "vote" not "asserting a choice") is just a something made up to justify a mass collective exercise of what otherwise would amount to a series of millions of individual licencing grants.


I'm not a lawyer, but based on my reading of section 11, the "vote" is simply to maintain the fiction that the "operator" of wikipedia is the "community" rather than the WMF - it doesn't appear to require individual licensing grants regardless.

QUOTE
But what nobody has explained to me is how switching from GFDL to CC BY SA would adversely impact them. I'm not says it can't be the case, but nothing comes to mind.


It would prevent existing GFDL material from being imported. It might not even allow existing CC-BY-SA material to be imported (something about incompatible attribution requirements i keep hearing)

I got the impression at some point that it seems to be what Wikia wants to happen, which makes the whole thing suspicious
GlassBeadGame
QUOTE(Random832 @ Thu 16th April 2009, 8:55am) *

QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Thu 16th April 2009, 2:08pm) *
Not quite. I ]But what nobody has explained to me is how switching from GFDL to CC BY SA would adversely impact them. I'm not says it can't be the case, but nothing comes to mind.


It would prevent existing GFDL material from being imported. It might not even allow existing CC-BY-SA material to be imported (something about incompatible attribution requirements i keep hearing)

I got the impression at some point that it seems to be what Wikia wants to happen, which makes the whole thing suspicious


Good substantive answer. At first it might seem to just keep out subsequent information and not upset the expectations of existing contributors under the former license. But I suppose it is reasonable for these former contributors to have the expectation that their GFDL licensed work would be built upon and improved by other GFDL work then outside the project. In fact they might have even intended to do the subsequent building themselves. Now it would make this much stronger if someone came forward and detailed that they had these expectations.
CharlotteWebb
QUOTE(anthony @ Thu 16th April 2009, 1:43pm) *

The change is improper and illegal, and is being justified (even explicitly in this thread by dtobias, GBG, and One) simply on the basis that "the ends justify the means".

It is common enough to effectively use "results wonk" as an insult, but not in so few words. tongue.gif

Seriously I think anyone attempting to enforce the terms of whatever free license is currently covering their edits would find it more trouble than it's worth. Of course the end would not justify the means if litigation based on license violations degenerates into an ego-driven financial loss (which I think it would more often than not), so I find it very difficult to care what license is being used as long as Wikipedia users and the WMF are willing and able to fully comply with it (for what it's worth, our track record with the GFDL has been spotty at best).

I'm tempted not to vote at all on the basis that I honestly don't give a damn whether mirror sites, CD-ROMs, coloring books, etc. credit me in any way, shape, or form. While I do realize some people will feel very differently about that, the one red flag for me is that importing GFDL-only content from other places will no longer be allowed.

Better grab it all now (!) I say because I have a cynical hunch that the license change will pass (even if switching horses midstream turns out to be illegal). So if anyone knows of some good GFDL-licensed resources that have not been fully tapped, please point me to a list.

QUOTE(Eva Destruction @ Wed 15th April 2009, 12:43am) *

The criteria is "users who have made more than 25 edits prior to March 15, 2009 on any Wikimedia project"; I have 118,415 edits on en-wiki so I assume I qualify…

(adding) Hmmm, just let me vote by following the link from Commons instead of en-wiki. Maybe just a glitch.

A bigger glitch is that it would even matter which project an SUL-enabled user is calling from. dry.gif
gomi
QUOTE(One @ Tue 14th April 2009, 8:42pm) *
That said, I find it strange that negotiations with non-authors could allow the license to be changed this way. I doubt anyone would protest, ... but it seems peculiar that licenses could be legally revised by such a process.

I presume that once the change is carried out, some enterprising individual (who knows, perhaps even me) will serve WMF with a DMCA take-down notice for their previous contributions, and we'll get to see how they react. Regardless of the improvement the CC license may be, WMF cannot unilaterally change the copyright status of previous contributions.
Jon Awbrey
QUOTE(gomi @ Thu 16th April 2009, 11:23am) *

QUOTE(One @ Tue 14th April 2009, 8:42pm) *

That said, I find it strange that negotiations with non-authors could allow the license to be changed this way. I doubt anyone would protest, … but it seems peculiar that licenses could be legally revised by such a process.


I presume that once the change is carried out, some enterprising individual (who knows, perhaps even me) will serve WMF with a DMCA take-down notice for their previous contributions, and we'll get to see how they react. Regardless of the improvement the CC license may be, WMF cannot unilaterally change the copyright status of previous contributions.


I was wondering what the Summer Silly Season Diversion would be this year.

I guess this must be it.

Well, I might as well throw another marshmallow on the Bonfire of the Inanities —

Are class action suits feasible in this area?

Jon Awbrey
Random832
QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Thu 16th April 2009, 3:10pm) *
Better grab it all now (!)


It's already too late - the deadline for importing GFDL content from other sources was November 2008. (without a single vote cast! Hmm, I wonder...)
Son of a Yeti
QUOTE(gomi @ Thu 16th April 2009, 8:23am) *

QUOTE(One @ Tue 14th April 2009, 8:42pm) *
That said, I find it strange that negotiations with non-authors could allow the license to be changed this way. I doubt anyone would protest, ... but it seems peculiar that licenses could be legally revised by such a process.

I presume that once the change is carried out, some enterprising individual (who knows, perhaps even me) will serve WMF with a DMCA take-down notice for their previous contributions, and we'll get to see how they react. Regardless of the improvement the CC license may be, WMF cannot unilaterally change the copyright status of previous contributions.


That's right. if you wrote something then the copyright belongs to you and the only defense they would have against your lawsuit would be the license you gave them. If they use a different one they infringe your intellectual property rights.

evilgrin.gif
GlassBeadGame
QUOTE(Random832 @ Thu 16th April 2009, 9:46am) *

QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Thu 16th April 2009, 3:10pm) *
Better grab it all now (!)


It's already too late - the deadline for importing GFDL content from other sources was November 2008. (without a single vote cast! Hmm, I wonder...)


QUOTE
11. RELICENSING

"Massive Multiauthor Collaboration Site" (or "MMC Site") means any World Wide Web server that publishes copyrightable works and also provides prominent facilities for anybody to edit those works. A public wiki that anybody can edit is an example of such a server. A "Massive Multiauthor Collaboration" (or "MMC") contained in the site means any set of copyrightable works thus published on the MMC site.

"CC-BY-SA" means the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 license published by Creative Commons Corporation, a not-for-profit corporation with a principal place of business in San Francisco, California, as well as future copyleft versions of that license published by that same organization.

"Incorporate" means to publish or republish a Document, in whole or in part, as part of another Document.

An MMC is "eligible for relicensing" if it is licensed under this License, and if all works that were first published under this License somewhere other than this MMC, and subsequently incorporated in whole or in part into the MMC, (1) had no cover texts or invariant sections, and (2) were thus incorporated prior to November 1, 2008.

The operator of an MMC Site may republish an MMC contained in the site under CC-BY-SA on the same site at any time before August 1, 2009, provided the MMC is eligible for relicensing.


This is why I consider the section basically unintelligible. The November 2008 deadline seems to refer to "covers and invariant sections" aspects of software manuals that Stallman has always given disproportionate attention to in GFDL. The conjunction "or" / "and" would certainly be helpful between the paragraph proper and the two numbered subsections but all we get is a comma. I frankly don't have a clue what they are on about there.

Worst of all the term The operator of an MMC Site arrives cut from whole cloth in the next paragraph as new and expedient party to the license relationship. This is the paragraph that would seem to allow the escape. A deadline of August 2009 is referenced here.
CharlotteWebb
QUOTE(Random832 @ Thu 16th April 2009, 3:46pm) *

QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Thu 16th April 2009, 3:10pm) *
Better grab it all now (!)


It's already too late - the deadline for importing GFDL content from other sources was November 2008. (without a single vote cast! Hmm, I wonder...)

Okay I see where you're getting this [1].

QUOTE(GNU.org)

Q. Exactly what material can be licensed under CC-BY-SA 3.0?

A. In order to license an FDL-covered work under CC-BY-SA 3.0, a few conditions must be met:
*The work must be available under the terms of FDL 1.3, which provides you with this permission. If the work was released under the terms of “the GNU Free Documentation License, version 1.2 or (at your option) any later version,” then it meets this criteria.
*The work must not have any “Cover Texts” or “Invariant Sections.” These are optional features in all versions of the FDL.
*If the work was originally published somewhere other than a public wiki, it must have been added to a wiki (or some other kind of web site where the general public could review and edit the materials) before November 1, 2008.

All FDL-covered material added to Wikipedia before November 1, 2008 satisfies these conditions.


So it looks like take-down requests (from gomi, et al.) will only be honored for edits after that date.

Of course there will be users who made edits after that date despite being banned before that date. I'm sure this category of take-down requests will be honored too. tongue.gif

As for non-wiki GFDL sources, it looks like one only needs to import them to one's own wiki site, log into the database and fudge the timestamps, then import them to Wikipedia because they appear to have been "added to a public wiki before Nov. 1, 2008". It would be difficult to prove otherwise unless the original "off-wiki" publication was after that date.
GlassBeadGame
Here a question for the best minds on open source licensing: Does Licensing have anything akin to "the parole evidence rule" in contracts which provides guidance for when extrinsic evidence can be used to determine the intent of the parties?

It would seem to be that a license would need to be governed by "the four corners of the writing" even more so than a contract. People who have no relationship, interaction or bargaining power are after all relying on the terms of the license. They can't be expected to read the license grantor's mind.
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