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bambi
New York Times, 2009-11-27

Here is a juicy paragraph from this op-ed by Evgeny Morozov, "a Yahoo fellow at Georgetown University and a contributing editor to Foreign Policy. His book on Internet democracy will be published in 2010."

QUOTE
If newspapers produce the first drafts of history, Wikipedians certainly produce its latest and — thanks to Google — most viewed drafts. Wikipedia has become an extremely powerful platform with tremendous real-world repercussions for those caught in the crossfire of its decision-making. For this reason alone, Wikipedia can no longer be run like the favorite basement project of anonymous 13-year-olds.

Yeah!
carbuncle
QUOTE(bambi @ Fri 27th November 2009, 3:41pm) *

New York Times, 2009-11-27

Here is a juicy paragraph from this op-ed by Evgeny Morozov, "a Yahoo fellow at Georgetown University and a contributing editor to Foreign Policy. His book on Internet democracy will be published in 2010."

QUOTE
If newspapers produce the first drafts of history, Wikipedians certainly produce its latest and — thanks to Google — most viewed drafts. Wikipedia has become an extremely powerful platform with tremendous real-world repercussions for those caught in the crossfire of its decision-making. For this reason alone, Wikipedia can no longer be run like the favorite basement project of anonymous 13-year-olds.

Yeah!


Interestingly, the theme of other recent articles about WP's loss of editors is that more rules and tighter enforcement of those rules have driven contributors away. This article approached things from the point of view that the rules are too lax. It focuses on one specific incident (the disclosure of the names of convicted killers in Germany). The author seems to be taking WP quite seriously, which suggests to me that they are either not terribly familiar with WP, or that they are looking forward to an idealized WP. The suggestion that WP create a board of expert advisors strongly suggests the former.
Milton Roe
QUOTE(carbuncle @ Fri 27th November 2009, 8:50am) *

This article approached things from the point of view that the rules are too lax. It focuses on one specific incident (the disclosure of the names of convicted killers in Germany). The author seems to be taking WP quite seriously, which suggests to me that they are either not terribly familiar with WP, or that they are looking forward to an idealized WP. The suggestion that WP create a board of expert advisors strongly suggests the former.

I am shocked, simply shocked, that an news op-ed piece would opine about something the op-editor really knew very little about.

But doing it in a name-brand journal like the New York Times, presumably means its now fair game for being quoted now in WP as a "reliable source" view, without being original reseach, right? biggrin.gif

"Hey, it's not original. This here newspaper op-ed guy, who has no idea what he's talking about with this WP perennial suggestion, just wrote it."
MZMcBride
Someone posted the nytimes.com link to Jimmy's talk page. His reply:
QUOTE

I think it is a pretty offensive piece, actually. He acknowledges on the one hand that Wikipedians produced 60 pages of argument about this case, and boldly insults the participants of that debate by claiming that our process amounts to "the favorite basement project of anonymous 13-year-olds." He claims (correctly) that such decisions are too much and too important to be made unilaterally by one person (even if it is me :-) ), but fails to notice that I had absolutely nothing to do with the Wolfgang Werle decision - or hundreds of other decisions made thoughtfully here every day without me even knowing about it. (What does he suppose people were arguing about for 60 pages? It certainly wasn't about how to convince me of anything, since I don't think anyone would suggest that it is or should be up to me to make detailed content decisions of that type.)
None of that reflects well on his suggestion that we find a board of "experts" to overrule community consensus.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:06, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
Cedric
QUOTE
The German case illustrates that some of the disputes could be too complex to be easily pigeon-holed into an intractable body of Wikipedia’s rules and practices. To resolve such cases in a satisfactory fashion, one needs a thorough understanding of philosophy, history, law and ethics; having some hard-earned worldly wisdom wouldn’t hurt either.
. . .

Thus, whenever current rules and norms of the project come into conflict, Wikipedians shouldn’t shun away from asking for help. An external international panel comprising the world’s most eminent philosophers, legal scholars, historians and others can prevent challenging cases from getting ugly before they reach the courts.

Paging Dr. Moulton . . . paging Dr. Moulton . . .
Milton Roe
QUOTE(MZMcBride @ Fri 27th November 2009, 10:23am) *

Someone posted the nytimes.com link to Jimmy's talk page. His reply:
QUOTE

I think it is a pretty offensive piece, actually. He acknowledges on the one hand that Wikipedians produced 60 pages of argument about this case, and boldly insults the participants of that debate by claiming that our process amounts to "the favorite basement project of anonymous 13-year-olds." He claims (correctly) that such decisions are too much and too important to be made unilaterally by one person (even if it is me :-) ), but fails to notice that I had absolutely nothing to do with the Wolfgang Werle decision - or hundreds of other decisions made thoughtfully here every day without me even knowing about it. (What does he suppose people were arguing about for 60 pages? It certainly wasn't about how to convince me of anything, since I don't think anyone would suggest that it is or should be up to me to make detailed content decisions of that type.)
None of that reflects well on his suggestion that we find a board of "experts" to overrule community consensus.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:06, 27 November 2009 (UTC)



And why not, O Jimbo? The 60 pages of arguing on a given subject might suggest that it's being done by other than 13-year-olds (if it's not 60 pages of texting insults), and it might even suggest that it's not being done to convince you of any position (as if anybody suggested that). However, it doesn't reflect badly somehow on the idea of expert review, so what leap of logic led to that idea? Inquiring minds want to know.

A 60 page WP argument is actually a bit of mild evidence for the idea there isn't much expert review going on, due to the fact that real experts in these subjects probably don't have that much time to waste, any more than you yourself do. Not that you're any kind of expert. smile.gif

Actually, 60 pages of argument also suggests an attempt to reach "consensus" in a community grown too large for "consensus" to work as a tool of decision-making. So what are the alternatives? Hmmm? ermm.gif
Somey
QUOTE(Jimbo)
...He claims (correctly) that such decisions are too much and too important to be made unilaterally by one person (even if it is me :-) ), but fails to notice that I had absolutely nothing to do with the Wolfgang Werle decision - or hundreds of other decisions made thoughtfully here every day without me even knowing about it. (What does he suppose people were arguing about for 60 pages? It certainly wasn't about how to convince me of anything, since I don't think anyone would suggest that it is or should be up to me to make detailed content decisions of that type.)

That's a highly narcissistic response; I would assume Mr. Morozov didn't include any verbiage pertaining to Jimbo's non-involvement in the Werle case because it wasn't relevant to the story. Morozov is simply saying that the traditional "bring it to ANI" approach to WP disputes isn't working, which has been obvious for years now... IMO he wasn't trying to say that Jimbo should handle all disputes personally, or criticize him for not handling them all personally.

If anything, Morozov was trying to suggest that Jimbo's personal involvement in other cases is often a good thing. If Jimbo had made the decision to remove the brothers' names "unilaterally" when the request was first made (and it wasn't that unreasonable a request as far as the article itself was concerned), the whole business might not have been noticed at all.
Moulton
QUOTE(Cedric @ Fri 27th November 2009, 12:29pm) *
Paging Dr. Moulton . . . paging Dr. Moulton . . .

Yes, the notion that Wikipedia needs more rules or better rules is predicated on the mistaken belief that it is possible to craft a functional set of policies and practices out of a suitably constructed set of rules.

That belief was shattered well over a century ago, when mathematicians first began to understand that rule-based systems are not orderly, stable, and predictable, but mathematically chaotic. Indeed, if the rules are fair, you get a pretty good game (e.g. Chess, Checkers, or Go). Wikipedia is not just a game, it's a generalized multi-player game better known as a drama. A drama is a game where the objectives of the various players are not equal and opposite.

Ethical management, grounded in best practices is nonetheless possible, but one must upgrade from a puerile rule-based paradigm to a function-based model. There are good sources for this idea. Among them, I recommend the seminal work of Peter Senge.

However, the likelihood that Wikipedia will evolve to such 21st Century notions is nil to nonexistent.
GlassBeadGame
QUOTE(Evgeny Morozov, NYT Op-Ed @ November 27, 2009)
Thus, whenever current rules and norms of the project come into conflict, Wikipedians shouldn’t shun away from asking for help. An external international panel comprising the world’s most eminent philosophers, legal scholars, historians and others can prevent challenging cases from getting ugly before they reach the courts.

After all, there is a reason why newspapers have editorial boards and ombudsmen; it seems strange that one of the most powerful media sites in the world hasn’t yet followed suit. There would be little harm in bringing half a dozen wise people on board, if only to reaffirm Wikipedia’s commitment to becoming the world’s most respected — rather than most feared — source of knowledge.


Independent and external dispute resolution has been a cornerstone of any serious critique of Wikipedia and has been a bright line distinguishing serious critics from Wikipedian pretenders advocating lukewarm reforms intent on changing nothing.
Moulton
Have I mentioned lately that Jimbo Wales dismissed a workshop on managerial ethics as "beyond the scope of the project"?
thekohser
QUOTE(MZMcBride @ Fri 27th November 2009, 12:23pm) *

Someone posted the nytimes.com link to Jimmy's talk page. His reply:
QUOTE

I think it is a pretty offensive piece, actually. He acknowledges on the one hand that Wikipedians produced 60 pages of argument about this case, and boldly insults the participants of that debate by claiming that our process amounts to "the favorite basement project of anonymous 13-year-olds." He claims (correctly) that such decisions are too much and too important to be made unilaterally by one person (even if it is me :-) ), but fails to notice that I had absolutely nothing to do with the Wolfgang Werle decision - or hundreds of other decisions made thoughtfully here every day without me even knowing about it. (What does he suppose people were arguing about for 60 pages? It certainly wasn't about how to convince me of anything, since I don't think anyone would suggest that it is or should be up to me to make detailed content decisions of that type.)
None of that reflects well on his suggestion that we find a board of "experts" to overrule community consensus.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:06, 27 November 2009 (UTC)



I have to LOL at Jimmy Wales calling something "offensive".
EricBarbour
QUOTE
hundreds of other decisions made thoughtfully here every day

That's it.

Fuck you, Mister Wales. You are so full of shit, it's starting to drip out
of your nose and onto your keyboard.


"Thoughtful decisions" my ass, little man.
Was Risker's recent banning of Greg Kohs a "thoughtful decision"?
Where's the "thoughtful decision" covering Shankbone's ongoing mental breakdown?
Ask Daniel Brandt about "thoughtful decisions".
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