Palestinians to face 'Wikipedia War'
Ma'an News Agency
BETHLEHEM (Ma'an) -- The next regional war will be a media war, head of the Palestinian Journalists Syndicate Abdul Nasser An-Najar said Thursday. ...

<a href="http://news.google.com/news/more?pz=1&ned=us&ncl=d5fZNkgRtsNMcWM" target="_blank"></a>

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Great. Just what we need, another group of trained edit warriors.

If they're not careful, they could end up in one of those "infinite recursion" situations - as soon as they finish the course in how to be in a trained editing squad, they'll have to take another course in how to recognize and deal with opposition editing squads, and when they get through with that they'll have to take a course in trying to avoid detection as an editing-squad member by opposition editing squads trained to recognize and deal with them, ad infinitum.

Except I doubt the PNA has the competence to offer any training in any field besides cronyism and corruption for dummies.

What's the PA suppose to do, construct new tunnels for the all the Hot Pockets that will be needed? Besides the IDF will be able to locate the editing safe-houses by their microwave (oven) signatures.

This shows the fail of "anybody can edit." What is needed is the guidance of non-controversial experts, just like any real encyclopedia would use. First WMF would need to take editorial responsibility for the content.

Maybe WR should offer training courses like this? We're probably more qualified than either of those organizations, right? Most of these people probably don't even know who Jayjg is!

This could even be a practical use for Wikiversity - now there's a notion I never thought I'd entertain.

(Btw, for those of you not keeping score, Mssrs. Shabazz and Nableezy don't appear to be the best of friends, at least on Wikipedia. Hopefully they'll restrain themselves a bit better here...? )

thinking as a blood sport - the pinnacle of human evolution.

On the bright side, maybe Iran will get in on it as well and champion universal broadband in south Lebanon and Gaza. Are Uzbekis allowed to go to those Russian hacking schools in Siberia? Fun, fun, fun!

lol at the idea of the PA supporting the effort of training POV pushers.

Naw, I like Malik. Sickest man he is.

What makes you say that? Nableezy and I get along very well.

Oops, you're right - my mistake, sorry! I was looking at your recent log of blocks and noticed a couple of pages where Nableezy was mentioned, and I just misread it as Nableezy being accused of "outing" someone - it looked like you were one of the accusers, but I totally missed this diff.

Hopefully y'all can forgive me - it's easy to get confused over there sometimes!

See also radar detector detector detector.


I'm sure someone will argue the WMF would forfeit section 230 immunity by hand-picking said experts. That could be facetious, but I wouldn't make an even-money bet either way.

I argued on occasion, before my wiki-exile, that a different way of dealing with I/P conflict articles is needed. If you have a situation in which two sides are interested in nothing but proving their side is right (and that is the present situation) then it is quite an act to keep up the pretense that a balanced article is the goal. Instead it is really competing teams (an 'I' team and a 'P' team) applying the thinking of Vince Lombardi, "Winning isn't everything; it's the only thing", to WP editing. That is the present situation, and the way things have been a long time. With news such as this, there is the possibility that even more and better trained wiki-warriors will be involved. Feh.

But, looking at the bright side, it does indicate that there will be one area where WP's editor loss problem will be reversed, and where enthusiastic new editors rushing in.

So what's the spread betting on the number of new I/P editors to be placed under editing restrictions before the end of the year? And how many will really be old friends returning?

Welcome to Wikipedia Review Malik. Congratulations on your recent promotion to administrator, and dick enlargement.

My experience with Palestinians is that they are intelligent, well educated, and hard working. I have a lot of respect for them, and what they have accomplished despite many difficulties. I am sure that can give an excellent training in WP editing.

Palestinians, sure. Palestinian "leaders", especially those in the PNA, not so much.

The Palestinian government in Gaza put together a very credible fighting force. There are schools, and although I do not know for sure how good the are, I do know that Palestinians get very good educations at university level around the world. There are hospitals, with good doctors, and other infrastructure. Certainly with better government things could be better, but that can be said of any country.

There are poets, artists, musicians, all with a great tradition behind them. You can not say there is just potential, there are accomplishments.

Tough call, since it seems Jimbo thinks it's not a problem.

When he jumps in, it's kinda like throwing a rodeo clown on a dirt bike onto the Kentucky Derby track.

Sigh.

What a waste of time. But inevitable, I guess.

I tend to agree more and more with Kelly Martins´observation that "the encylopedia anyone can edit" is a great way to start an encyclopedia...and a lousy way to finish one.

But as long as we have basically "mob-rule" on wp, ie wrt sources ( yes, we do!) ..this sort of thing is bound to happen. When the "community" (with arb.com) always chooses the easy way out ("it is a content-dispute: work it out!")...it leaves an open invitation to mobs and socks.

We should, ideally, have some basic rules which would have forbidden mobs to push fringe views. Eg. The Haeretz/Guardian articles mentioned an example of saying that places in the occupied territories are "in Israel", a view held by no international institution, or for that matter; any other state. But with 50 newly "educated" religious right-wing Israelis: guess what wp will "reflect".

And the PA trying to push the opposite view? I think it is a "luxury project" that will get absolutely nowhere. But this article will serve as a wonderful, wonderful justification for the Yesha Council etc...... their own recruiting.
"Preemptive strike", anyone?

In the I/P area Jimbo lost every bit of cred (if he ever had any) years ago....when he appointed Jayjg to arb.com...even if there were others who had more votes than Jayjg.

Someone should ask Jimbo if he doesn´t want to appoint Jayjg (now topic-banned from the I/P area and stripped of his CU-powers) ..to arb.com again!

eh, not really so recent.

As far as I know Jayjg's topic ban is expired, but he does not seem to have returned to editing I/P articles. But I wish you would stop whining about Jayjg, because I saw him outvoted by the 'P' team many times in I/P editing disputes.

Hmm, I thought it was idef.

But Kwork, I agree: Jayjg is not the topic here. The topic it Jimbos judgement when it comes to the I/P-area; which has been, shall we say, less than stellar.

In the end a risk management strategy based on responsibility is more stable and sustaining than one based on immunity.

There were a host of editors (from both teams) topic banned in the arbcom decision. I think they had the right to request their ban be lifted after six months, but that is just my memory and I could be wrong. I was not a party in the case and had not edited any of the articles involve in that.

Jayjg got singled out for tough treatment, and had some of his administrative powers removed - such as checkuser - even though there was nothing to show he had ever misused that....in contrast to Lar.

Sigh. Try again: Jayjg is not the topic here. Nor any of the other "players". The topic it Jimbos judgement when it comes to the I/P-area.

None of the other "players" in this arena/or arb.com decision had been granted such powers --by Jimbo.

I have also been trying to find a video of Jimbo wich he made about "peace in the Middle East"...or something like that. I believe it was made before his appearance at the World Economic forum, (in Sharm), a couple of years ago.

I cannot find it now, but I recall it as quite embarrassing: Jimbo showed as much knowledge about the Middle East as an 8-year old. Hence, I find SB_Johnny´s description of him in this setting as quite accurate. Unfortunately.

Far as you know........

That interesting. First you complain about "mob rule" on Wikipedia. Then you complain that an article's content (you do not say what article) has "a view held by no international institution"....as though international politics is something other than mob rule. As far as I know article content is supposed to be based on sources that are WP:V, not mob rule.

Your argument is an advocacy, ie rooting for the 'P' team. The problem with this approach always remains the same. How could it change when every WP editor (and WR member) thinks that their point of view on I/P problems is the completely right point of view, and that their team deserves to win the game. It is the zero-sum game approach to editing that thinks: my win is your loss.

By the way it seems that my education in wiki-speak is not complete. What is "wrt"?

Well Jimbo obviously likes people who send him emails and lick his arse even if they do threaten to sabotage Wikipedia. (See a recent post by Tarantino in the Kavanagh thread for details of emailing and arse-licking.)

This episode has just let me know that he's a pompous prig. I'm sure that other WRers can point me to further examples of encyclopedic article writers who have fallen victim to said priggishness and consequently reduced their constructive activities or stopped them altogether.

not really wiki-speak. General internet abbreviation. "With regard to" or "with respect to". Either way, it means the same thing.

Many members of this list have the strange idea that Jayjg has some sort of extraordinary power on WP. If that was ever the case, which I doubt, it must have ended long ago. In fact the fourth, and final, time I got indeffed followed a defense I made of Jayjg on the Arbitration Committee Noticeboard following the arbcom decision on Requests for arbitration/West Bank - Judea and Samaria. The discussion can be seen here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...l_of_privileges

I do not recall a single administrator who defended Jayjg in that. But my defense got me some special attention from rootology, Lar, and Rlevse, who all soon showed up on my talk page with warnings and blocks to hand out. It was pretty funny, really. My support for Jayjg was clearly had not been appreciated.

his influence has long ago eroded. I don't think he was ever a superpower, but he did wield some influence.

In the end it worked out as five editors on the P side and 2 on the I being banned. This is because two of the banned editors were the same person who has continue to edit under further sock ids. I don't know why people have it in for JayJG, I've found that I can work with him on other matters. He understands that I am as happy to work against anti-Semites as against the right wing of Zionism and we have cooperated in those areas. We understand where we disagree and where we agree and don't take arguments with each other out of the I/P area. And there are other Z editors besides J with whom I have clashed on I/P matters who also understand and have the intellectual honesty to be able to know that I am both critical of Zionism and opposed to anti-Semites. However there are at least two people who have made posts today on Wikipedia Review sayign that I am anti-Semitic. One of them is a bit slow and may not have grasped the complexities of the matter, the other is most certainly being intellectually dishonest.

What a load of crap.

1.If Jayjg finds it convent to hold his nose and work with you that's his business. I suppose he has to make do with what's around.

2.The right wing Zionist group that you have been complaining so much about, Kach, is banned in Israel, and classified as a terrorist group everywhere. Complain about them all you want, but they are out of the loop.

3. In my view you would not recognize "intellectual honesty" if it was served to you with watercress around it.

4.The "slow" list member you are referring to must be me. I am a simple uneducated worker who never went to college, and almost did not graduate from high school. I admit to being a member of the working class on my only still existing user page http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Malcolm_Schosha

Personally I try to make it a practice not make critical comments about things that are not a matter of choice. Criticism is, in my view, only justified in matters where there is choice. If, for instance, someone is intelligent or slow, attractive or ugly, Chinese, Italian or Indian, healthy or sickly, etc are matters that are outside the area of choice. On the other hand, if someone is kind or mean, tolerant or bigoted, patient or irascible, those are matters of choice; and a critical analysis of those matters is justified. I think that blame or derision toward things that do not involve choice (intelligence, ethnicity, etc) is vicious.

When I first mentioned the Kahane movement, I said that it was banned in Israel and the uS as a terrorist and racist group. However, even after those groups are banned, Kahanists still exist. They still use the exact same version of the fist and star logo that Kahanist groups such as Kahane Chai and the Jewish Defense League used and they use them in publicity photos sent to newspapers such as this years after the groups have been banned while pretending to just be combatting anti-Semitism.

It may be underhanded to criticize people for things they can't change, but what religion you believe in and what cultural traditions you follow, are certainly matters of choice, are they not? (Although a huge number of people end up commited to life to the religion they imbibed with mothers' milk; we'll leave out that complication, as this is changable).

Many of the people screaming about "antisemitism" blur the line between genetics and culture/religion. If you criticize a Jew for some Jewish belief (of which there are a variety, from reform to orthodox, as you know), quite often he or she will come back with "I was BORN a Jew! It's my genes! It's my race! You're an antisemite and a racist!" No. A person can be born a Jew as someone can be born a Catholic, and/or born a Jew as someone can be born an Austalian Bushman. A Bushman cannot change his genes. But after a certain age, he becomes responsible for his beliefs. So the beliefs are fair game for criticism, but the genes and ethnicity are not.

If Jews were very careful about applying the term "antisemitism" only to people who believed in the badness of Jewish genetics, things would be clarified greatly. But many are unwilling to do so, because they want the protection of being able to call "racist" at anybody who challenges what in any other religion would simply be a fair-game folkway, "more," taboo, belief, tradition, or whatever. So they asked for this problem, in a sense. "Church of Scientology" people (for example) don't get to shout "racist" automatically at anybody who laughs at Xenu, e-meters, and body thetans. But there are plenty of Jews willing to do that very thing at anybody who holds them accountable for their religious ideas and cultural biases, including those who believe in Zionism. They don't get a free pass just because they tend to keep their culture within their families like the Amish, and don't proseletize.

I know right. Siphoning humanitarian aid and selling it on the black market, begging for donations from first world nations while buying mansions in Paris and London, pirating water from fellow Palestinians and then complain Israel isn't giving enough because of racism...yeah, lots of potential.

Any future Palestine would self-destruct without being baby-sat by Israel, EU, and the UN.

International politics= mob rule?
Interesting view. Why do we have international organizations then? Why not just cut them out, leave it all to the mob?

(And AE was right: wrt= with regard to)

Semites are peoples who speak Semitic languages; the group includes Arabs, Aramaeans, Jews, and many Ethiopians. In a Biblical sense, Semites are peoples whose ancestry can be traced back to Shem, Noah's eldest son. The ancient Semitic populations were pastoral Nomads who several centuries before the Christian Era were migrating in large numbers from Arabia to Mesopotamia, the coasts of the Mediterranean Sea, and the Nile River delta. Jews and other Semites settled in villages in Judea, southern Palestine.

common knowledge, moulton

if you want to know why 'anti-semite' is now used as a term for 'anti-jew' or something, that's a different story. I've yet to hear anyone say semite refers to jews only, and it really is common knowledge that semite is a broader term than that. for example, majoring in semitic languages.

Difficult one ... yes, common knowledge - in theory - but the Zionists do seem to want as much of a monopoly over the term as they do the territory now known as Israel.

Boy, Zionism is sure becoming this forum's this week's pedophilia or pornography dominating umpteen threads. But then I guess it is all popular entertainment.

I predict the Palestinians will lose again in the long term. There is far more bandwidth in Israel and America than there is coming out of a shelled bunker in the Gaza Strip. But it will become a long protracted and expensive war that we will all become dragged into in one way or another.

The problem with the Wikipedia is that there is no obstacle or disincentive for any editor to strap on some metaphorically explosive facts and blow themselves and some topics up online .... endlessly. I mean, Israel has a fair few tanks on the domain but, without being able to offer broad cash incentives, it is far less supported internationally than it is in real life.

I am not getting involved.

Not inherently but they are two frightening words to find in the same sentence.


Hatred is mankind's only renewable resource. All others are exhausted at some point.

Hate is a mask for Fear.

Everyone comes with a Fear Processor — primarily the Amygdala and the Hippocampus.

That Dreadful Fear Processor is always gonna find something to declare dreadful, and then translate that Object of Dread into an Object of Hate.

Don'tcha just hate it when your Bloody Fear Processor gets carried away like that?

Palestinian PR is not designed in Palestine but Europe and USA. Average Palestinians have little to no influence over how their worldwide image is shaped and developed.

Generally, Wikipedia has far more pro-Palestinian than pro-Israel editors. Many Israel-related articles suffer from serious edit-warring and POV disputes. The concept of reliable sources is frustrating because RS exists to support all narratives, including Israel=Nazi Germany.

The Palestinians will always win the propaganda war simply because they have more money and energy to support it. The Arab states have pumped billions in petrodollars to purchase Middle Eastern study departments at mainstream universities (Harvard, Yale, Georgetown, London School of Economics, etc..) and the media is highly dependent on the Palestinian plight for revenue.

To think, the god-fathers in modern terrorism - hijacking airplanes, torching embassies, killing thousands all across the war, starting civil wars in Jordan and Egypt, killing and murdering each other, and assassinating Western diplomats - have managed to rewrite their history of violence and place the blame solely on the shoulders of Israel. The Palestinian plight is no longer attributed to a series of conflicts and wars involving multiple nations, but the Nakba - an event 6 decades ago where the ancestors of today's Palestinians were displaced and expelled in a regional war.

Even though the Palestinians are world record holders in humanitarian aid and their livelihood attracts more attention than all oppressed-peoples combined, people still whine about an absence of attention and lack of sympathy for the Palestinian people. That is by far one of the greatest lies in Arab victimhood.

In the 1970s, no one said this conflict was predicated on the creation of a Palestinian nation. The argument that the Arab states were passive victims to a belligerent Israel was laughed at.

Except for the quote below ... congratulations for a perfect study of insane hate garbage from a whacko Zionist Wikipedia troll.

Now, let's just take a look at that map again of how much land the Palestinians have had taken from them since 1946 and predict when Israel's final solution will be carried out.

Again, typical of the level Wikpedia is at ... its comes down to binary thinking. No room for an alternative point of view (humanitarian, objective, etc) "you are either with us or against us" on the sum of all human conflict.

Anymore ad-hominem attacks? Do you deny any of the explicit facts I provided in my post above?

IfAmericaKnew is an Arab propaganda site designed by state department-lacky Andrew Kilgore infamous for his personal relationship with the apartheid state of Qatar.

Between 1948-1967 Egypt and Jordan controlled the "Palestinian territories." Tell us why no Palestine was created when Israel had no influence over the Palestinian refugees?

It seems to me you are the one who has reduced this conflict to a zero-sum game, where the Arab end is subject to intense infantilization and Israel is vilified with anti-Zionist buzzwords.

The main reason why the Palestinians remain displaced and their Muslim allies are entrenched in the 7th century is because of mentalities such as yours. The reactionary blame-Israel harms the Palestinians more than Israel.

If Zionism never happened Arabs would still be as miserably as they are today. They would just find another soft-target to dump on.

There are no "explicit facts" in your posts. They are just shitpots of racist and hyperbolic garbage, fed into a liquidizer and scrambled as to make it as confusing and provocative as possible, whilst the Israeli Defence Force continues to shoot children, and run tanks over grandmothers, as they ethnical cleanse the Middle East.

The problem with your world view is that it does not account for the "explicit fact" that most people in this world, and I suspect a large proportion of editors on the Wikipedia, are just plain disgusted by Israel's human rights record and it has nothing to do with race, religion or even national politics ... and then there was all that controversy of Israel using money to try and buy collusion on the Wikipedia. I am sorry but that is likely to get folks back up.

It is one thing edit-warring for free against another jerk off who is also doing it for free but having to edit-warring for free against state sponsored team of jerk offs is just not on.

It is a simple equation. If you don't want people to say you stink, don't stink. And if you do stink, don't point at someone else and say the stink is coming from them. Go and have a bath.

Jeez, you are something else; I have obviously encountered my first real ET.
What it the planet you are normally living on called?