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EricBarbour
Went to the business section, and there was a huge photo of Sue Gardner.

Standard-issue, poorly cooked, half-heartedly researched WP "journalism".
Now they're quoting Joe Reagle as an "expert".

As usual, the comments are most entertaining …
A User
QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Sun 16th January 2011, 10:58am) *

.....went to the business section, and there was a huge photo of Sue.

Standard-issue, poorly cooked, half-heartedly researched WP "journalism".
Now they're quoting Joe Reagle as an "expert".

As usual, the comments are most entertaining......


"Encyclopedias are expensive books that only a select few families could afford."

Never ceases to amaze me this untruthful line espoused by supporters of wikipedia, particularly when purchasing a computer with monthly internet access, to read wikipedia is hardly free.
Jon Awbrey
QUOTE

So little bandwidth, so many identical puff pieces blowing in the Web. So let me hail our 10-year-old — in so many ways — by reciting an observation from the days when it was just a Wee Wikipedia of 7 years:

{begin quote : Jon Awbrey, 22 March 2008}

Wikipedia is irresponsible journalism and irresponsible scholarship

It begins with “editors” giving false names. It continues with influence peddling, organized plagiarism, and the stubborn persistence of false information. It ends with “administrators” bearing false witness against those who criticize it.

People who enter the Wikipedia compound and persist in asking the kinds of questions that responsible journalists and responsible scholars are just naturally bound to ask — they will find that their days in good favor are numbered, unless, of course they stop asking those questions and just “assume good faith”.

If professional journalists and scholars don't start doing their jobs, and this means doing a whole lot more than duping Wikipediot Articles of Faith and recycling Wikipediot PR, then WikiPundits will soon be putting them out of those jobs.

So watch out for that …

{end quote}

— Jon Awbrey, 15 Jan 2011 @ 4:45 PM

Larry Sanger
Journalism is dying. Oddly, it isn't the competition from free stuff online that is killing it, it is the bizarre laziness and low standards of journalists. Well, either I've gotten more critical or it has gotten noticeably worse in the last ten years.
Milton Roe
QUOTE(Larry Sanger @ Sat 15th January 2011, 9:39pm) *

Journalism is dying. Oddly, it isn't the competition from free stuff online that is killing it, it is the bizarre laziness and low standards of journalists. Well, either I've gotten more critical or it has gotten noticeably worse in the last ten years.

Bizarrely lazy journalists with low standards would not have been allowed to survive 100 years ago. This is just Gresham's law of the jungle where the bad drives out the good when nobody gives a damn about quality. A century ago the newspaper was all we had for current events, and so we demanded more from it.

Like most bad problems, this is a cybernetic problem in which the feedback loop is not working well. There are few conseqences (or at least none that happen obviously and quickly) to getting crappy journalism. The consequences are probably dire, but it's like smoking or pollution: they're so far off that the system hasn't acted to fix them. Let the globe warm. tongue.gif

Say-- have you noticed that your body starts to fall apart after you've reached the age where you should have reproduced and seen your children through to adulthood? Yeah, me too. Evolutionarily, it's kind of the same thing as journalism going to hell. With no feedback mechanism, there's no almost no evolutionary pressure left for nature to make a better Sanger by age 42. Bummer. There's hardly a nasty problem on Earth that can't be traced to the problem of slow or bad feedback.

On the other hand, a certain amount of good feedback over billions of years, is why we're all here in the first place, complaining about it all. So there's that. smile.gif
Cedric
QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Sat 15th January 2011, 5:58pm) *

.....went to the business section, and there was a huge photo of Sue.

Standard-issue, poorly cooked, half-heartedly researched WP "journalism".
Now they're quoting Joe Reagle as an "expert".

As usual, the comments are most entertaining......

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winnaaaaar!
QUOTE
galactus93, 12:39 PM on January 15, 2011

If you've ever taken the time to peek behind the curtain at the inner workings of Wikipedia's "administrators" (Read: cabal of basement-dwelling, fursuit-wearing, self-diagnosed Asperger's cases) you'll learn pretty quickly that it's really nothing more than a huge text-based MUD masquerading as an encyclopedia. Good for a laugh (on a good day), not much more.


QUOTE(Larry Sanger @ Sat 15th January 2011, 10:39pm) *

Journalism is dying. Oddly, it isn't the competition from free stuff online that is killing it, it is the bizarre laziness and low standards of journalists. Well, either I've gotten more critical or it has gotten noticeably worse in the last ten years.

I agree, except that I consider journalism in the MSM to have been dead since at least 1994. If you will recall, that was the year of A Tale of Two Skaters, followed hard upon by l'affaire OJ. I cannot recall another time when journalistic laziness and obsession with celebrity was on more blatant or disgusting display. To the extent that anything has changed since, it has only gotten worse.
Jon Awbrey
QUOTE
Sarcasticidealist
QUOTE(Larry Sanger @ Sun 16th January 2011, 12:39am) *

Journalism is dying. Oddly, it isn't the competition from free stuff online that is killing it, it is the bizarre laziness and low standards of journalists. Well, either I've gotten more critical or it has gotten noticeably worse in the last ten years.
I suspect that the journalists are much the same as they have ever been, only less numerous. Where before they were by and large lazy and somewhat incompetent (like members of most professions, only more visibly), now they're lazy, somewhat incompetent, and overworked.
A Horse With No Name
QUOTE(Sarcasticidealist @ Sun 16th January 2011, 5:38pm) *
I suspect that the journalists are much the same as they have ever been, only less numerous. Where before they were by and large lazy and somewhat incompetent (like members of most professions, only more visibly), now they're lazy, somewhat incompetent, and overworked.


At least the journalist who wrote this article isn't a confessed plagiarist...a claim that some people around here cannot make. dry.gif

That being said, the San Francisco Chronicle is among the worst daily newspapers in California. Whenever I am in the Bay Area, I only read the San Jose Mercury News. The San Francisco newspapers -- even the alternative weeklies -- are a true waste of paper and ink.
A Horse With No Name
QUOTE(Larry Sanger @ Sun 16th January 2011, 12:39am) *

Journalism is dying. Oddly, it isn't the competition from free stuff online that is killing it, it is the bizarre laziness and low standards of journalists. Well, either I've gotten more critical or it has gotten noticeably worse in the last ten years.


Maybe you are reading the wrong newspapers? There is plenty of great journalism still being published and broadcast. The problem is that the Internet has turned media into the digital equivalent of the amateur hour and broadcast TV news (at least in the USA) is so desperate for viewers that it promotes noise and attitude in lieu of content and objectivity.
A Horse With No Name
QUOTE(Cedric @ Sun 16th January 2011, 2:07pm) *
I cannot recall another time when journalistic laziness and obsession with celebrity was on more blatant or disgusting display.


Oh, I don't know...the Fatty Arbuckle murder trials was back in the 1920s and that was a pretty disgusting example of journalistic laziness and obsession with celebrity. ermm.gif
Guido den Broeder
QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Mon 17th January 2011, 12:55am) *

QUOTE(Larry Sanger @ Sun 16th January 2011, 12:39am) *

Journalism is dying. Oddly, it isn't the competition from free stuff online that is killing it, it is the bizarre laziness and low standards of journalists. Well, either I've gotten more critical or it has gotten noticeably worse in the last ten years.


Maybe you are reading the wrong newspapers? There is plenty of great journalism still being published and broadcast. The problem is that the Internet has turned media into the digital equivalent of the amateur hour and broadcast TV news (at least in the USA) is so desperate for viewers that it promotes noise and attitude in lieu of content and objectivity.


I don't know, newspapers will print anything these days without checking, including those that used to have a good reputation.

But it's rather the readers' fault. We keep buying those papers, for the sports pages. confused.gif
A Horse With No Name
QUOTE(Guido den Broeder @ Sun 16th January 2011, 7:04pm) *

But it's rather the readers' fault. We keep buying those papers, for the sports pages. confused.gif


Hell, when I am in London, I only read The Sun...but I don't get past page three! evilgrin.gif
Milton Roe
QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Sun 16th January 2011, 5:07pm) *

QUOTE(Guido den Broeder @ Sun 16th January 2011, 7:04pm) *

But it's rather the readers' fault. We keep buying those papers, for the sports pages. confused.gif


Hell, when I am in London, I only read The Sun...but I don't get past page three! evilgrin.gif

Ah, yes. The Sun reminds one juuuust a little of Bomis, no? What Wikipedia needs is a page 3, so we'd know just what to expect, and no more and no less. dry.gif
carbuncle
QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Sat 15th January 2011, 11:58pm) *

.....went to the business section, and there was a huge photo of Sue.

The colour of her hands in that shot makes her look like a compulsive hand washer.
Jon Awbrey
QUOTE

In its impact on the ecology of knowledge, Wikipedia amounts to a non-sustainable exploitation of cultural resources.

Wikipedia is analogous to a multinational timber conglomerate that clear-cuts living forests to crank out its lumber and its pulp, with no understanding of the living system that it sucks on like a destructive parasite.

Jon Awbrey, 17 Jan 2011 @ 5:30 AM

thekohser
QUOTE(carbuncle @ Sun 16th January 2011, 9:36pm) *

The colour of her hands in that shot makes her look like a compulsive hand washer.


Of course she is -- that ugly spider's still there.
Jon Awbrey
QUOTE(Cedric @ Sun 16th January 2011, 2:07pm) *

QUOTE(Larry Sanger @ Sat 15th January 2011, 10:39pm) *

Journalism is dying. Oddly, it isn't the competition from free stuff online that is killing it, it is the bizarre laziness and low standards of journalists. Well, either I've gotten more critical or it has gotten noticeably worse in the last ten years.


I agree, except that I consider journalism in the MSM to have been dead since at least 1994. If you will recall, that was the year of A Tale of Two Skaters, followed hard upon by l'affaire OJ. I cannot recall another time when journalistic laziness and obsession with celebrity was on more blatant or disgusting display. To the extent that anything has changed since, it has only gotten worse.


Yes, I remember, that was the year we started watching increasingly more British and Canadian television just to escape the blitz. Of course, the CBC went to hell a few years after (with a lot of help from uno who) and the BBC eventually started putting a special Merkinized Edition for the US audience.

Where have you gone, Linda Ellerbee
A nation turns its leaden eyes to you
(Woo, woo, woo)

Jon dry.gif
Sarcasticidealist
QUOTE(Jon Awbrey @ Mon 17th January 2011, 9:56am) *
Of course, the CBC went to hell a few years after (with a lot of help from uno who)
Do you listen to CBC radio at all? It's still mostly excellent (certainly compared to CBC television, or to commercial radio stations), but CBC TV has lost whatever justification it may once have had for taxpayer funding.
Milton Roe
QUOTE(Jon Awbrey @ Mon 17th January 2011, 6:56am) *

Yes, I remember, that was the year we started watching increasingly more British and Canadian television just to escape the blitz. Of course, the CBC went to hell a few years after (with a lot of help from uno who) and the BBC eventually started putting a special Merkinized Edition for the US audience.

Where have you gone, Linda Ellerbee
A nation turns it's leaden eyes to you
(Woo, woo, woo)

Jon dry.gif

So true. It is Ellerbee who helpfully explains that the job of journalism is to explain what it personally does not understand. And that you can always tell when journalists have run out of sources and stories when they start reporting incestuously on each other and each other's publications. bored.gif

For the last two years, has anybody noticed that MSN news has moved what used to be called "The Woman's Section" up their front page? wink.gif If they put their sports news up there everybody would complain, but now we get stories targetted at another group of readers, who are not terribly interested in international events. I wish I'd been collecting story titles for the last week to illustrate some of this, but today's big headline is "The Best and Worst of the Golden Globes." I'm sure that addicts of Glee will be fascinated. Other main stories today:

Apple's Jobs takes medical leave (no, nothing about software or business)
Bank overcharged military families
10 stocks to watch this week (Okay, a legitimate front page story)
Manage menopause with your menu wacko.gif
Bing: Woman finds drugs in vacuum yecch.gif more soap opera
Find: Ohio State Stadium in Legos (For you arrested development people and your caregivers)
Bing: Burglar chased with a broom huh.gif A story for witches, and not the Harry Potter kind.
Malleus
QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Sun 16th January 2011, 11:59pm) *

QUOTE(Cedric @ Sun 16th January 2011, 2:07pm) *
I cannot recall another time when journalistic laziness and obsession with celebrity was on more blatant or disgusting display.


Oh, I don't know...the Fatty Arbuckle murder trials was back in the 1920s and that was a pretty disgusting example of journalistic laziness and obsession with celebrity. ermm.gif

It was; a truly disgusting episode in American history.
Jon Awbrey
QUOTE(Sarcasticidealist @ Mon 17th January 2011, 12:34pm) *

QUOTE(Jon Awbrey @ Mon 17th January 2011, 9:56am) *

Of course, the CBC went to hell a few years after (with a lot of help from uno who) …


Do you listen to CBC radio at all? It's still mostly excellent (certainly compared to CBC television, or to commercial radio stations), but CBC TV has lost whatever justification it may once have had for taxpayer funding.


Used to listen to Radio Free Classical Music from Canada quite a lot, especially after the demise of Detroit's onetime excellent classical station, but then we got a new car with Sirius/XM … so of course they put a crummy antenna in it for anything that isn't satellite. Been meaning to get to some auto-audio shop to fix that … but life goes on in the shire …
A Horse With No Name
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Mon 17th January 2011, 12:44pm) *

Bing: Burglar chased with a broom huh.gif A story for witches, and not the Harry Potter kind.


You go, Durova! wink.gif
Cedric
QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Sun 16th January 2011, 5:59pm) *

QUOTE(Cedric @ Sun 16th January 2011, 2:07pm) *
I cannot recall another time when journalistic laziness and obsession with celebrity was on more blatant or disgusting display.


Oh, I don't know...the Fatty Arbuckle murder trials was back in the 1920s and that was a pretty disgusting example of journalistic laziness and obsession with celebrity. ermm.gif

I was referring to my own lifetime; Fatty was a bit before my time. No doubt, however, that Mr Arbuckle was the victim of a terrible injustice, so much so that the third jury that heard his case had a statement read out in open court saying so. unhappy.gif
EricBarbour
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Mon 17th January 2011, 9:44am) *

Find: Ohio State Stadium in Legos (For you arrested development people and your caregivers)

They're not looking at the MSM anyway. They're editing Wikipedia.
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