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the fieryangel
This is one of the things that really gets my goat. As somebody who studies music professionally, I know a lot about the creative process. While the public has this idea that composers and other creators basically live in some sort of world where there are no such things as bills to pay, food to buy, clothes to wash and other such mundane things that make up ordinary existence, these things are often important parts of why certain choices are made in a professional life and why some people either succeed or fail. "Information just wants to be free" should never be understood as "free as in beer", since composers, writers, artists and others have to make their lives.

Happily for people living today, other creators in the past have fought to create some sort of payment for use of intellectual property to those who create. Beaumarchais was the first important figure in this process, insisting on a percentage of the book at performances of his plays. Beethoven created a new statute for composers by refusing to submit to the old system of royal patronage. Finally, in 1847, the composer Ernest Bourget sued the Café-Concert (think "cabaret") the Ambassadeurs in Paris for payment for use of his songs and won his court case. This lead to the create of unions of composers such as the SACEM, ASCAP, PRS and others which allowed for payment for use of music. Although there are excesses, I can personally point to situations in which this money becomes the difference between living comfortably (but not lavishly) and being in a poorhouse...

Information just wants to be free, but creators need to be paid. It's a right to be paid for your work. Why should creators be any different?

Unfortunately, Wikipedia is taking this even further in their latest fund-raising ploy : Give us money and we'll give you "free" information.

The pitch starts out on the right foot, even making the important statement that Free should be understood to mean freedom :

QUOTE
To counter this trend, writers, scientists, musicians, artists, and others have joined together to call for access to knowledge and the creation of a social movement for free culture — culture that is free as in freedom, if not necessarily as in price. In the short lifetime of the free culture project, Wikipedia has taken up a position as the most successful and important free cultural work. Wikimedia projects, including Wikipedia, provide everyone working toward a free culture with an example of what success might look like, hints for how they might achieve it, and the inspiration to continue.


I mean , nobody is going to come out and say "we want information repressed". But we're talking about "free" in terms of freedom here. The payment part is out of the picture.

Since they're trying to get money out of us, money quickly comes back in the next paragraph:

QUOTE
Your support of the Wikimedia Foundation during this year’s donation drive does more than fund the foundation and its projects. It helps support and pave the way for the global movement for free culture that is already much larger than Wikipedia, Wikimedia, and wikis. The free culture movement, as Wikipedia demonstrates, offers a compelling vision of how we might improve the way we produce and consume information throughout our lives.


So, giving money to Wikipedia means supporting "freedom"? Not a bad sentiment. But it's also, by their own admission, not that simple :

QUOTE
Under contemporary copyright laws, one can not legally copy an article for a friend, create a mash-up of a video, or sing Happy Birthday at a restaurant with asking for permission and, in most cases, paying for a license. Even more problematically, most cultural works are copyrighted by default at the moment of creation; only by explicitly disclaiming rights can works be used, copied, or modified. Through copyright, access to the most important cultural and scholarly resources are barred by tolls and restrictions. Legal access to most knowledge and culture is expensive — and prohibitively expensive for many. The creation of transformative or derivative works — like sampling and “mash-ups” — is frequently prohibited altogether.


This implies that transformation or derivation somehow adds quality. If I write a piece for soprano and string quartet using a biblical text, using it as a soundtrack in a porno movie or in the latest Gangsta Rap record does not really further my intentions in writing such a work. Creation implies ownership, but it also implies intent. It just as much the creator's right to say "this is NOT my work" as it is to say "this is my work.

The fact that most works are, by default, copyright is also a quality, not a default (and I'm sure that our friend Durova is very thankful that this is the case). It means that anyone living in countries who adhere to the Bern Convention have automatic protection to works that they create. The whole "Happy Birthday" business (the "worst case" scenario, if there ever was one) is just going around the issue: You are free to sing any song, to perform any play, to do whatever you wish with anything in the privacy of your own home. But you can't do it in a place where money is being made without paying the creator. And if you don't have permission to transform something, then you can't make money off of it yourself; this is called "stealing".

Then we have the usual Utopian business about everything being "free", but note that it's not clear whether we're talking about "free" as in "freedom" or "free" as in "beer". And finally, we get back to the central issue: for this to work, you have to have....money :

QUOTE
The free culture movement, in this sense, is torn between the desire to create a world of truly free knowledge and the sense that in, for that knowledge, they have eliminated all viable financial and social systems to sustain creation of these works. The pragmatists compromise on a Utopian vision of a free world while the Utopians espouse what appears to many to be unrealistic.


So, how are we going to do this?

Well, here's WP's answer! Give us money!

QUOTE
Wikimedia is a Utopian free culture project. Its goal is not only to collect knowledge; its goal is to do so freely. Wikipedia was created before it was clear that a free encyclopedia could or would succeed or that it would be better than the existing proprietary alternatives. Its goal was to be free, open, and unrestricted. Ironically, this idealistic commitment drove the creation of alternatives and redefined what was possible and realistic. In the free culture space, nothing demonstrates this better than Wikipedia. Nothing gives free culture’s Utopians as much hope.


I guess that "free culture's Utopians" don't read the Register these days...

Then we have another use of the word "free" :

QUOTE
Wikimedia is important simply in that it exists and in that is existing freely. As one of the most visited websites in existence, Wikipedia is an inevitable destination for any web searcher or surfer. It is a frequent response to the questions and curiosity of millions. But it is not just ubiquitous; it is better. It is no longer particularly controversial to suggest that Wikipedia is the single most impressive reference work ever compiled. It is one of the most important extant culture works in the world. And it is also free.


"Free" as in "Freedom"? Or "free" as in "beer"? Probably the latter here...so, because Wikipedia is "Free", we're supposed to pay for it. But, wait! There's more!

QUOTE
And yet, while these donations are targeted toward the support of Wikimedia and its member projects, their impact in the free culture movement is much larger and more important. As the visible symbol of free culture to the vast multitude of people who have never heard the term, Wikimedia is intimately tied up in free culture’s success. Wikipedia provides not only an example of how free culture is possible, it demonstrates how it can be done. It also shows that free culture — truly free culture — is better than the proprietary alternatives. Wikipedia has already paved the way for the success of hundreds of free culture projects. Its success in its struggles, including this fundraising drive, will help or hurt the immediate prospects of the entire movement for free culture.


Free Culture is better than the proprietary alternatives? Which "free" is this? And why does any of this have to do with choices that I make about my work and how it is used? It's sort of like going into someone's house and saying, "alright, I've decided that this is mine now, so you have to move out". If you want to do something with a song or a painting, you can make one yourself!

If all of this is about "free" as in "freedom", then wouldn't it be better to support those artists, writers, musicians and others by attending concerts/buying artwork/buying books, instead of creating the circumstances which allow their work to be stolen in a misguided effort to help "poor children in Africa"? And if this is about "free" as in "beer"...Well, there's that office down the hall marked "Wikia"? They're certainly not giving out anything for "free"...
JohnA
It's not Utopian. It's a Marxist analysis calling for the ending of private property and the forced collectivization of Information and History.

It's as if the 20th Century never happened.
The Joy
People have to be assured that they can reap from whatever they create. Otherwise, why invent anything?

That's not to say there isn't altruism. As individuals, it is our responsibility to help others. If I invent a cure for cancer, I shouldn't be a heartless you-know-what and hoard it for a high price. I should get it out there to save as many people as possible. The law though does defend the heartless inventor and the charitable inventor. A conundrum to be sure.
GlassBeadGame
QUOTE(the fieryangel @ Wed 12th December 2007, 4:31am) *


If all of this is about "free" as in "freedom", then wouldn't it be better to support those artists, writers, musicians and others by attending concerts/buying artwork/buying books, instead of creating the circumstances which allow their work to be stolen in a misguided effort to help "poor children in Africa"? And if this is about "free" as in "beer"...Well, there's that office down the hall marked "Wikia"? They're certainly not giving out anything for "free"...


Free...as in malaria.

...as in rampant pandemics want to be free.

Better to give your money to to Bill and Melinda if you care about that African kid.

the fieryangel
Well, the comments are pretty epic and indicate that this tactic is also going down in flames :

QUOTE
# D.Cordes Says:
December 11th, 2007 at 3:06 pm

Re: The Free Culture Movement.

As with other “free” services, those who promote them are not usually the ones paying for them. How many of the world’s writers, artists and musicians have signed up for this movement, willingly agreeing to give away their work…to whose control? A government panel? A panel of self-styled intellectuals headed by Wikimedia appointees? Not too many, I would guess.

If you can socialise intellectual property, why stop there? How could it be equitable to remove ownership of their work from one group? Why not take over all production and move to a truly Utopian, Marxist system, for that is what you are proposing. Some immediate questions arise which are stated, but not answered in your appeal.

1. How do you propose to “fairly” compensate writers and artists after ownership of their work through copyright law is taken from them, presumably in most cases, without their consent?

2. How will information providers get funds from advertisers that permit them to operate if they have nothing unique to offer?

3. What writer, artist or musician would agree to have his/her work corrupted by selective addition, deletion or rearrangement by others? This is surely the first step on the way to chaos.

4. Re (3)above. Presumably you will arrange for all defamation law to be immediately repealed.

5. National security laws will have to be repealed also. Otherwise, any terrorist will be able to rewrite your comments without attribution and YOU, the original writer, will end up in jail in most countries.

6. Perhaps (5) is one of your goals as well. Who would benefit? It would be more honest if you stated all your aims alongside the apparently benign “Utopian”goals that you acknowledge.


QUOTE
# Ron Collins Says:
December 11th, 2007 at 4:39 pm

As a content creator and business owner, it’s difficult for me to fully support the concept of totally free content without understanding the risks to my business. I agree it would be great for the world if our database of 15,000 medical illustrations and animations were absolutely free to use for education and non-commercial projects. But would I be able to pay my employees to maintain the artwork, databases, meta data, software, etc.? Is a donation only model sustainable below a certain size?

Perhaps if I knew how much money Wikimedia makes from donations as a ratio to the number of its viewers, I could determine whether my business would survive by giving away its content. Are those data available anywhere?

I think most content authors can support the idea of making the world a better place by donating their works for education, but until the risks/rewards are more quantifiable, there will be a lot of resistance.


...not to mention Greg K's great comments...


QUOTE(The Joy @ Wed 12th December 2007, 9:11pm) *

That's not to say there isn't altruism. As individuals, it is our responsibility to help others. If I invent a cure for cancer, I shouldn't be a heartless you-know-what and hoard it for a high price. I should get it out there to save as many people as possible. The law though does defend the heartless inventor and the charitable inventor. A conundrum to be sure.


Yes, but that's a moral question, not a legal one. Of course, one should do good, but what these people want to do is effectively steal other people's property and then profit off of it.

This isn't about "poor children in Africa". This is about Sue G. and Michael G.'s salaries, the move to SF, Jimbo's traveling and Floflo's childcare bills.

Now, is that really worth a million dollars? And does this really deserve to be called a "not-for-profit" organisation?

It's just like their changing use of the word "free". This is the "shell game", pure and simple.

Don't fall for it!
Amarkov
I still don't get it. Objectivism is quite clear on this: asking for altruism is bad. How, then, can Jimbo's encyclopedia not only ask for donations, but imply that donating to Wikipedia is a moral necessity?
The Joy
Charity is in many ways like a business.

I invest in a business and expect dividends. I expect my investment to produce good products.

For a charity, I expect no material reward, but I do expect a good product: something that benefits people and helps them.

If I invest (i.e. donate) in the Wikimedia Foundation, what does it give to people no one else can?

This all reminds me of an article I read recently where this charity is creating these crank-up laptops for schoolkids in Kenya. Weeeeeell, some private companies came along and created their own crank-up laptops which are better made, have better software, and at a better price than the charity's. The charity then complained that that was mean of the private companies to offer a better product at a better price to the Kenyan schoolchildren. I would have thought the charity would have been happy that private companies were investing in the "Third World." Like the laptop charity, I don't think many Wikipedians are truly altruistic and believe they are helping anybody.

The "Third World" needs reliable computers and reliable Internet connection at a low low price. After that, good information skills are needed so people can find the information they need that relates to their problems and find solutions. This is investing in education and people and the rewards will be fruitful for everyone.

I would love a comprehensive limitless reliable encyclopedia that everyone can enjoy and learn from. Heck, more than one such encyclopedia/reference work would be great too! Wikipedia just isn't right for this. There needs to be more control, more academic oversight, more research, and more good faith collaboration as well long-term commitment. Right now, I wouldn't give WP's troubles to a monkey on a rock let alone some poor kid in Africa trying to get good information and education to help himself and his countrymen.
anthony
QUOTE(Amarkov @ Thu 13th December 2007, 12:34am) *

I still don't get it. Objectivism is quite clear on this: asking for altruism is bad. How, then, can Jimbo's encyclopedia not only ask for donations, but imply that donating to Wikipedia is a moral necessity?


I thought in Ayn Rand's world people would voluntarily donate to the government because it's in their rational self-interest. So obviously not all donations are considered by Objectivists to be "altruism".

When has Jimbo implied that donating to Wikipedia "is a moral necessity"?
The Joy
QUOTE(anthony @ Wed 12th December 2007, 9:41pm) *

QUOTE(Amarkov @ Thu 13th December 2007, 12:34am) *

I still don't get it. Objectivism is quite clear on this: asking for altruism is bad. How, then, can Jimbo's encyclopedia not only ask for donations, but imply that donating to Wikipedia is a moral necessity?


I thought in Ayn Rand's world people would voluntarily donate to the government because it's in their rational self-interest. So obviously not all donations are considered by Objectivists to be "altruism".

When has Jimbo implied that donating to Wikipedia "is a moral necessity"?


I would donate with the stipulation that my money go directly to maintaining WikiQuote and WikiSource. I do not want a cent of my money going to Sue Gardner, Jimbo, or the English Wikipedia.

If the Foundation allowed that, maybe I'd consider donating as I like WikiQuote and WikiSource. Not because I think it embiggens the smallest man or anything, just because I like it! smile.gif
the fieryangel
More comments about this posting :

QUOTE
1) An artist creates a work of art and wishes to sell it. They don’t want you to change the work or sell it yourself, they want to be the sole source of the work so they can feed themselves.

2) Free Culture/Open Source/Etc people step in. Information must be free, after all, and what is art but a collection of data - information? The Mona Lisa has been rendered digitally millions of times, statues can be rendered digitally quite easily, MIDI has reduced artistic perfomance to simple datastreams for decades, now, and books themselves are nothing more then text data. All art is information, and Free Culture insists all art be free and modifiable by anyone who wants.

3) The work is distributed on the internet ten million times before lunch, instantly becomes worthless, and the artist goes back to pumping gas for a living instead of creating more art.

4) Insert/Replace the word ‘artist’ with ‘author’, ‘musician’, ‘historian’, ’scientist’, or whatever your favorite profession is. All the world is simply data - information, wanting to be free. And there are billions of people out there who are quite happy to make it free, whether the creator wishes it to be or not.

Welcome to the 21st century.


QUOTE
# Amy Says:
December 13th, 2007 at 12:05 am

The very fact that your organization solicits donations underlines the reality that nothing is free. The only questions become who is paying and who’s getting paid.

The volunteer force editing Wikipedia are the very reason I don’t allow my students to use it as a source in their papers. It is good for little else besides a portal to credible sources, in the cases where articles are cited.

That doesn’t make Wikipedia any less of a commodity that has value in the marketplace, and those for whom it has value will certainly donate and contribute. But the flaws in the resource certainly illustrate that you get what you pay for.

My labor as a writer has its own value as a commodity, and I refuse to recognize your right to strip me of my ownership of that labor. If we try to turn our artists into slaves of the free culture movement, we may find that while culture is free, it’s become awfully scarce.


QUOTE
# Martin "xarragon" Persson Says:
December 12th, 2007 at 9:15 pm

Gregory Kohs makes a very valid point here in my opinion. My own inclination to donate money to wikipedia/wikimedia is directly proportional to my trust in these entities. The trust issue really boils down to this: Is wikimedia/wikimedia an organization that furthers my goal of freedom of information, or is it a feeding hook for the staff to rake in money? Maybe I should simply stop donating money and spend time writing articles, instead spending these resources on publishing information on a website under my own control instead?

I can’t say I know what an Executive Director does, but I do know that $500 000 is a heapload of money when the principal output of the project is a website. This brings us to the next question: What SHOULD wikipedia/wikimedia focus on? Should it focus exclusively on maintaining wikipedia.org, or start funding computers in third-world countries? This also directly affects my inclination to donate money to the relevant entities.

Maybe in the future we will see free information, but several “distributors” of it? If you don’t mind advertisements, donate to “bizwiki.com”. If you would like your money to maintain a fast web encyclopedia and ignore any projects involving distributing copies of the information on physical media to third-world countries, then choose “cheapopedia.org”. And if you like your good’ol ‘pedia just like today, donate to wikipedia.org…

Just the mad ravings of a madman I guess, but hey, it’s free ravings!


Then, there is this rather confusing rant, which seems to cover all of the bases:

QUOTE
# Brian Says:
December 13th, 2007 at 6:06 am

Wikipedia needs our help. In response to the comments above…
“How do you propose to “fairly” compensate writers and artists after ownership of their work through copyright law is taken from them, presumably in most cases, without their consent?”
Well, what artist makes a work of art with any other intention than another’s or their own enjoyment of it? Superficial compensation has nothing to do with it.
“How will information providers get funds from advertisers that permit them to operate if they have nothing unique to offer?”
Funds? Permit them to operate? The fatty acids and calories in your body permit you to operate, if you think it’s anything else, congratulations, you’re DELUDED.
“What writer, artist or musician would agree to have his/her work corrupted by selective addition, deletion or rearrangement by others? This is surely the first step on the way to chaos.”
If their work gets corrupted, it’s no longer their work. When they make something, it will be recognized and documented. Any “improvements” or alterations to a copy of it will exist soley for the benefit of the individual operator. That’s not called chaos, it’s called freedom.
“Presumably you will arrange for all defamation law to be immediately repealed.”
Survey says: Yes. Private defamation, anyway. Stop thinking of works of Art as definite, completed entities. A peice of Art that is good enough by public estimation nobody will want to improve.
“National security laws will have to be repealed also. Otherwise, any terrorist will be able to rewrite your comments without attribution and YOU, the original writer, will end up in jail in most countries.”
Thus the need to combat terrorism. And for that matter, government. Or maybe you’d like to let them dictate EVERYTHING we do. Better yet, let’s stop writting anything! That way we can get the extremists to focus on what really matters: Blowing people up. Yeah!
“Perhaps (5) is one of your goals as well. Who would benefit? It would be more honest if you stated all your aims alongside the apparently benign “Utopian”goals that you acknowledge.”
Oooo, Mr. Insinuation, just what kind of an argument are you making? Have you ACTUALLY confused freedom with terrorism? Well, I’ll be honest at least. I can’t speak for Wikimedia (or can I…?), but yes, Wikipedia is socialist. And it is succeeding wildly. In fact, it is the perfect example of why anarchism is the ultimate utopia. And does some executive need $500,000 in funding? So? Money is useless unless you think it’s not, so the only danger there is that Wikimedia itself might be marginalized and bought out some way or another, which, admittedly, is a valid concern.
So, in conclusion, Wikipedia is the consumation of cyber-communism, and it’s success will usher in an era of REAL communism/anarchism/socialism/feudalism/anythingotherthanaristocracy! Ooh look out, I’m a terrorist!
Seriously, Wikipedia’s need for money is disgusting, but only because all money is disgusting. Wake up and smell the progress.


Poetlister
QUOTE(The Joy @ Thu 13th December 2007, 2:47am) *

I like WikiQuote and WikiSource. Not because I think it embiggens the smallest man or anything, just because I like it! smile.gif

Wikiquote has at least one really superb brilliant admin and Wikisource has at least one really superb brilliant contributor. biggrin.gif
the fieryangel
QUOTE(Poetlister @ Thu 13th December 2007, 3:12pm) *

QUOTE(The Joy @ Thu 13th December 2007, 2:47am) *

I like WikiQuote and WikiSource. Not because I think it embiggens the smallest man or anything, just because I like it! smile.gif

Wikiquote has at least one really superb brilliant admin and Wikisource has at least one really superb brilliant contributor. biggrin.gif


Getting back to The Joy's main idea, which was being able to indicate where one wants one's donation spent, I seem to remember somebody saying that this was possible in the US. And I believe that they have to provide proof that the funds were indeed spent that way.
GlassBeadGame
QUOTE(the fieryangel @ Thu 13th December 2007, 9:24am) *


Getting back to The Joy's main idea, which was being able to indicate where one wants one's donation spent, I seem to remember somebody saying that this was possible in the US. And I believe that they have to provide proof that the funds were indeed spent that way.


Of course if any donation to a non-profit is conditional the non-profit has the right to accept or reject the donation in light of the conditions. Otherwise a donor could impose a net hardship with the "gift" or even disrupt the mission of the non-profit.
darbyl
Howdy gang.

I mainly just sit back and learn from the erudite denizens of this fine forum, but I had to comment on this quote:

QUOTE
Drazen Cavuzic Says:
December 12th, 2007 at 6:17 pm
Gregory, it seems that not getting answer to you question frustrates you. So I would like to offer one to you: besides the fact that Executive Director and her staff on a “Free Culture” project are human beings and need to eat and feed their families too, they are doing work which is IMPORTANT, at least to me and, as I believe, many of us “Wikipediots”, so they should not spend their creativity on dull things like thinking how to pay bills etc.


So, let's get this straight. The Executive Director is a person and needs a $500.000 a year budget to eat; but us content authors...no, we're just in it for the love of the game and the warm (empty) feeling in the pit of our stomachs that comes from having our content "liberated." I think that sums the Free Content mindset up nicely.
thekohser
QUOTE(darbyl @ Thu 13th December 2007, 2:14pm) *

Howdy gang.

I mainly just sit back and learn from the erudite denizens of this fine forum, but I had to comment on this quote:

QUOTE
Drazen Cavuzic Says:
December 12th, 2007 at 6:17 pm
Gregory, it seems that not getting answer to you question frustrates you. So I would like to offer one to you: besides the fact that Executive Director and her staff on a “Free Culture” project are human beings and need to eat and feed their families too, they are doing work which is IMPORTANT, at least to me and, as I believe, many of us “Wikipediots”, so they should not spend their creativity on dull things like thinking how to pay bills etc.


So, let's get this straight. The Executive Director is a person and needs a $500.000 a year budget to eat; but us content authors...no, we're just in it for the love of the game and the warm (empty) feeling in the pit of our stomachs that comes from having our content "liberated." I think that sums the Free Content mindset up nicely.


Darbyl, you've GOT it, and it only took you one post! Welcome.

Yes, our good Hungarian specialist in pharmaceutical ionization, Drazen Cavuzic, believes that a salary that exceeds 99.5% of the income earners in the United States is well worth the IMPORTANT work that Sue Gardner will be doing. You know, bringing in-language encyclopedia workshops to remote villages in Tanzania. Oh, and coordinating Jimbo's worldwide travel schedule.

I hope you enjoyed your liberation.

Greg


GlassBeadGame
QUOTE(thekohser @ Thu 13th December 2007, 3:04pm) *

QUOTE(darbyl @ Thu 13th December 2007, 2:14pm) *

Howdy gang.

I mainly just sit back and learn from the erudite denizens of this fine forum, but I had to comment on this quote:

QUOTE
Drazen Cavuzic Says:
December 12th, 2007 at 6:17 pm
Gregory, it seems that not getting answer to you question frustrates you. So I would like to offer one to you: besides the fact that Executive Director and her staff on a “Free Culture” project are human beings and need to eat and feed their families too, they are doing work which is IMPORTANT, at least to me and, as I believe, many of us “Wikipediots”, so they should not spend their creativity on dull things like thinking how to pay bills etc.


So, let's get this straight. The Executive Director is a person and needs a $500.000 a year budget to eat; but us content authors...no, we're just in it for the love of the game and the warm (empty) feeling in the pit of our stomachs that comes from having our content "liberated." I think that sums the Free Content mindset up nicely.


Darbyl, you've GOT it, and it only took you one post! Welcome.

Yes, our good Hungarian specialist in pharmaceutical ionization, Drazen Cavuzic, believes that a salary that exceeds 99.5% of the income earners in the United States is well worth the IMPORTANT work that Sue Gardner will be doing. You know, bringing in-language encyclopedia workshops to remote villages in Tanzania. Oh, and coordinating Jimbo's worldwide travel schedule.

I hope you enjoyed your liberation.

Greg


501 ( c ) ( 3 )'s report the compensation of key employees each year on form 990. I have never actually heard of any sanction being imposed as a result of this disclosure, but then again I have never heard of a such a shockingly disproportionate income by an executive director of a non-profit. Keep in mind that that we talking about an enterprise with employees and activities that compare modestly with a 7-11.
Moulton
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Thu 13th December 2007, 3:29pm) *
Keep in mind that we are talking about an enterprise with employees and activities that compare modestly with a 7-11.

You mean they are mostly a junk feud peddler?
darbyl
QUOTE(Moulton @ Thu 13th December 2007, 1:36pm) *

QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Thu 13th December 2007, 3:29pm) *
Keep in mind that we are talking about an enterprise with employees and activities that compare modestly with a 7-11.

You mean they are mostly a junk feud peddler?


Intellectual junk food: cheap, easily digestible, ultimately unfulfilling, and chock full of unsavory additions.
GlassBeadGame
QUOTE(darbyl @ Thu 13th December 2007, 3:49pm) *

QUOTE(Moulton @ Thu 13th December 2007, 1:36pm) *

QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Thu 13th December 2007, 3:29pm) *
Keep in mind that we are talking about an enterprise with employees and activities that compare modestly with a 7-11.

You mean they are mostly a junk feud peddler?


Intellectual junk food: cheap, easily digestible, ultimately unfulfilling, and chock full of unsavory additions.


I was think in terms of numbers (10-12 employees.)
the fieryangel
QUOTE(darbyl @ Thu 13th December 2007, 9:49pm) *

QUOTE(Moulton @ Thu 13th December 2007, 1:36pm) *

QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Thu 13th December 2007, 3:29pm) *
Keep in mind that we are talking about an enterprise with employees and activities that compare modestly with a 7-11.

You mean they are mostly a junk feud peddler?


Intellectual junk food: cheap, easily digestible, ultimately unfulfilling, and chock full of unsavory additions.


Hi Darbyl and welcome to WR! I'm sure that you'll fit right in here!
guy
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Thu 13th December 2007, 8:52pm) *

I was think in terms of numbers (10-12 employees.)

But much higher salaries.
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