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Daily Mail, UK -43 minutes ago
By Jonathan Margolis Did you know that Gordon Ramsay is a pigeon fancier on the quiet, whose birds have won several prizes? Or that Simon Cowell has a ...[/size][/font]

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Kato
To give the Daily Mail article its full title:

QUOTE
Wicked-Pedia! Millions trust its every word. But Wikipedia, the error-ridden encyclopaedia, has become a dangerous tool


For those not in the know, the Daily Mail is the UK's second biggest-selling daily newspaper, with a big influence on public opinion.
Kato
In fact, this article is so worth reading. Here is the lower half (bolding mine)

QUOTE(Daily Mail)
The truth is that we should kick our Wikipedia habit, however seductive the site is and easy to access its contents. To my mind, Wikipedia is nothing less than a monster.

Much of its content is, I have to admit, OK. But the good stuff is fatally undermined by a toxic scattering of misleading rubbish like my fake facts would be, if I went to the minimal effort of posting them.

And this junk information poisons the well of collective knowledge. It renders everything on Wikipedia suspect. At any one stage, it is estimated that there are 100,000 'sabotaged' pages on Wikipedia - which means the chances of coming across false information is one in 70.

This might not sound much, but it is enough for teachers in schools and universities to be deeply concerned about the site, telling their students not to confuse a fleeting 'click search' with actual <cite>research. </cite>Teachers try to crack down on anyone lazy enough to copy verbatim, or 'cut and paste', its frequently dubious material into their essays.

One, Professor Tara Brabazon of the University of Brighton, has explicitly banned first-year students from using Wikipedia - or Google - and insists on them sticking to reading lists.

Too many students don't use their own brains enough,' she says. 'We need to bring back the important values of research and analysis.'

Other colleges have followed suit not only here in Britain but also in America, where the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, the University of California in Los Angeles and Syracuse University in New York have all banned the use of Wikipedia as a source for material.

The truth is that Wikipedia's journey from delightful idea to cultural juggernaut to international bad joke is something of a fable for our times.

It shows how a combination of idealism and technology is falling into disrepute because of something its young progenitors forgot, or were too well-intentioned, to factor in - the sad truth that a small but substantial minority of the public are too malicious, mischievous or plain nuts to have their outpourings given a supposedly respectable platform.

The internet, heaven help us, provides a wonderful opportunity for all these kinds of people to let off steam - and there is nothing wrong with that. But surely they shouldn't be encouraged to do so on a site posing as an encyclopaedia.

So who is behind Wikipedia? How has it become so phenomenally successful since it was launched in January 2001? And can anything control the monster now that it's been unleashed?

Wikipedia's founder Jimmy Wales was an unlikely character to have started a universal work of scholarly reference. He is a one-time soft pornographer from Alabama. My source? Wikipedia, actually.

The story goes that he was awestruck as a child by his first encyclopaedia, bought for him from a travelling salesman who visited the family home in Huntsville, Alabama.

Born in 1966 to a private school teacher and a grocery store manager, he excelled at maths and made enough of a fortune as an options trader in Chicago to support himself for the rest of his life.

As the dotcom bubble inflated, he headed to Silicon Valley in California to start a company that ran what he calls a 'male interest site'. Then he alighted on the seemingly crazy idea of creating a free online encyclopaedia, written 'by the people, for the people', embarking on the venture with Larry Sanger, a website editor.

They were able to create the website thanks to a computer program called 'wiki' (a Hawaiian term meaning 'quick'). The aim was to create the biggest repository of human knowledge, all of it written and edited from scratch by absolutely anyone with time to spare.

To give the bearded Jimmy Wales his due, he soon realised that miscreants were taking over the internet asylum he so generously built them.

In the run-up to the Iraq War, constant sabotage to the pages of Tony Blair and George Bush forced him to introduce a policy that denied to anonymous users editing rights of major political figures.

That did not stop an extraordinary - and offensive - fiasco from occurring during President Obama's inauguration. After Senator Ted Kennedy left the inauguration lunch in an ambulance having had a seizure, Wikipedia stated that he had died - even though he is still alive.

And the very moment when Bruce Springsteen, Obama's superstar supporter, was launching into his song Born To Run at the Super Bowl's half-time show earlier this month, his Wikipedia entry read, simply: 'Bruce Springsteen. This guy kinda sucks.'

Later, visitors to the page were given a little more to go on: 'Bruce Frederick Joseph Springsteen (born, September 23, 1949), nicknamed-"The Boss" is a FAG.' Anyone who then pressed the 'refresh' button on their computer found the entire entry was translated into Japanese.

Wales has accepted that more controls have to be introduced. But can the Wikipedia monster actually <cite>be </cite>controlled now that it is so big?

The company has just 23 employees, based in Silicon Valley, so its method of minimising errors relies in the first instance on Wikipedia's readers spotting and editing inaccuracies.

Here, of course, lies the problem: there's no way of knowing whether the person who spots an error and edits an entry on any subject is a saboteur with some bizarre agenda of their own - or whether they are simply introducing innocent mistakes through ignorance.

A layer above these self-appointed Wikipedia policemen there are around 75,000 Wikipedia-approved volunteer editors around the world scrutinising the seven million pages of entries in their spare time and attempting to delete the obvious rubbish as it appears.

Using 'real' sources, from the establishment media and academic material, plus their own expert knowledge, they assess what is incorrect or unfair and remove it.

Sometimes they are remarkably quick at taking down crackpot stuff, so the entries on well-known topics, especially in science (on which they are said to be quite sound) or biographies of important personalities, are often accurate enough.

After the Ted Kennedy fiasco, Wales is proposing that editing a biography of a living person should become a two- stage process - anonymous contributors can still edit, but their amendments will have to be checked by someone higher up the Wikipedia food chain before they can be published on the internet.

But this suggestion alone has led to problems. The more crazed 'Wikipedians', as contributors are known, claim that this will amount to censorship - and the very ideal of Wikipedia, a site written by the people for the people, will be jeopardised.

'It is not in the interests of the community to trample on the views of a large and passionate minority who wish to maintain the principle that all editors have an equal right to edit and equal responsibility for what they produce,' writes one such objector.

To top all of this, Wikipedia is also in financial crisis. Wales could have made himself very rich by turning it into a traditional media company, but he refuses to accept advertising and has kept it as a charity - and the charity has recently had to pass the begging bowl.

He made a personal appeal over the internet in December to 'keep Wikipedia free', which raised $6 million (&pound;4.2 million). Some suggest this will not be enough to keep the organisation going for long.

If Wikipedia does disappear or if, as could conceivably happen, it were taken over and commercialised (and perhaps made a professional service) by someone like Bill Gates or Google, its amateurish, free-for-all days will doubtless be mourned. But at least those monstrous inaccuracies would disappear with it.

dtobias
The article makes some good points, but it opens in a somewhat cheaply sensationalized way by giving a few outlandish fake facts... not ones that have actually appeared in Wikipedia, but ones the author made up as examples of things he could be inserting into Wikipedia if he felt like it. Whether they'd stick or be reverted in seconds is an open question. It might make for a more honest article to open with actual examples of bad stuff that's appeared on Wikipedia, as the article does eventually get to.
Moulton
QUOTE(dtobias @ Sun 15th February 2009, 7:27pm) *
It might make for a more honest article to open with actual examples of bad stuff that's appeared on Wikipedia, as the article does eventually get to.

We've all appeared in Wikipedia, most of us in many an atrocious scene.

Doesn't that count?
EricBarbour
I've seen this before:
QUOTE
The company has just 23 employees, based in Silicon Valley

Second-rate UK journos seem to keep repeating that.

It's in San Francisco, which is NOT part of "Silicon Valley".
In fact, the WMF office is 40 miles north of "Sillycon Valley".

(In a crappy neighborhood, too. They have to live with all the traffic going
on and off the Bay Bridge, about 80 feet from their front door.
Plus all the construction on the bridge and freeway.

If I were running an office, being a few blocks from the AT&T ballpark would not be
a feature, with 270,000 cars going past the front door every day.)

Despite being in the Daily Mail, and poorly written, this is a useful critique and
will likely cause Jimbo to lose some sleep tonite.
Cedric
What I am wondering is this: is this supposed to be a caricature of Mannisox?

Image
Peter Damian
QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Mon 16th February 2009, 2:21am) *


Despite being in the Daily Mail, and poorly written, this is a useful critique and
will likely cause Jimbo to lose some sleep tonite.


This is an important article in a paper that is influential in a certain kind of way. It is a signal that you don't have to be fawningly uncritical of Wikipedia in order to get major press coverage.

Plus that irritating meme that Wikipedia is error-proof has perhaps been silenced?
lolwut
Lol, the Daily Mail.

Despite my love/hate relationship with Wikipedia, I'd much sooner trust Wikipedia itself than the Daily Mail.

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/im...hedailymail.jpg
The Wales Hunter
For those who aren't aware, the Daily Mail has shown the ability to take out bigger "monsters" than Wikipedia in the past.

It could be argued their actions in the 1920s ensured socialism never caught on in the UK to the same extent as in, for instance, France:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinoviev_Letter
lolwut
"Wikipedia is increasingly exploited as a graffiti canvas by a new generation of cyberspace artists. While much of the graffiti is crude, some of it is remarkably subtle and creative." - Moulton

Any names in particular?
dogbiscuit
The importance of the Daily Mail is that it is the Unthinking Man's Guide to the World. It is reactionary conservative and casually serves up plausible half-truths which are accepted uncritically by a significant section of the population. It is considered the worst sort of propaganda by its detractors (me included) yet, even with the common knowledge of what it is, it maintains a significant readership. It is the sort of paper your mother reads, pausing only to comment to the world in general "It's true you know" as she skims the stories.

This is getting to the general uninterested population - the sort of people we would never reach. It is a fairly predictable publishing cycle - build up to knock down. The only trick they missed was the way Wikipedia published information about the Royal Family and the identity of the blackmail victim which was unlawful in the UK (cleaned up somewhat now), which would have outraged the staunchly Royalist readership.
The Wales Hunter
QUOTE(dogbiscuit @ Mon 16th February 2009, 4:15pm) *


...it maintains a significant readership...



Significant being the fourth or fifth highest of any English language newspaper on the planet laugh.gif

The Mail's readership is not as clear-cut as it used to be, when it was the newspaper of choice of the middle-class housewife. It's something of a step-up from the traditional tabloids for those who don't want to go to the traditional broadsheets (yes, very confusing as the Mail was initially a broadsheet and the broadsheets are now in tabloid format).

It does still represent, I would argue, the UK's small-c conservative, silent majority, though.
Peter Damian
QUOTE(dogbiscuit @ Mon 16th February 2009, 4:15pm) *

The importance of the Daily Mail is that it is the Unthinking Man's Guide to the World. It is reactionary conservative and casually serves up plausible half-truths which are accepted uncritically by a significant section of the population. It is considered the worst sort of propaganda by its detractors (me included) yet, even with the common knowledge of what it is, it maintains a significant readership. It is the sort of paper your mother reads, pausing only to comment to the world in general "It's true you know" as she skims the stories.

This is getting to the general uninterested population - the sort of people we would never reach. It is a fairly predictable publishing cycle - build up to knock down. The only trick they missed was the way Wikipedia published information about the Royal Family and the identity of the blackmail victim which was unlawful in the UK (cleaned up somewhat now), which would have outraged the staunchly Royalist readership.


Actually my wife gets it and I read what to me are the interesting articles, which are invariably the most trashy ones. I don't know what other papers there are. I used to read the Independent, which is hideously boring, before that the Guardian, which I could not bear to read now. I did get it on a free offer a year ago and it was worse than I could ever remember.

What else is there? The Telegraphy is still very Clarkson/Captain Mainwaring-ish, the Times is just dull.

On holiday it seems the people who read it are mostly women from the shires.

My wife still doesn't really grasp what Wikipedia is. She did register mild interest when Jimbo was on Fry's program but that is all.
The Wales Hunter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxdMFRwztl4

laugh.gif Still true, broadly.

I know I'm in something of a minority by being centre-right, and also see things from the inside, but the UK media realignment right now is fun to watch.
Peter Damian
This gives a very good indication of the contents

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/mostread/index.html

I see Rowan Pelling has a new sex column, which is very Daily Mail as Rowan is not just ordinary trash, she is St Hugh's College trash, worked on Private Eye, edited the Erotic Review, ex-judge on the Man Booker prize (wow), and a columnist on the Telegraph AND mother of two sons.

My wife's Guardian-reading friends (for we live in a Guardian-reading area) sneer at the paper, but she points out it is just a comic.
lolwut
Well, exactly. This newspaper does speak for the large mild conservative population of England. And in some ways, a little bit of conservative thinking can be a good thing IMHO... but the Daily Mail is just a joke.

It's pretty much all sensationalist stories to grab headlines for concerned people, especially middle-class, older or middle aged women (but men too), who will just use it to gape with concern about "how bad society's becoming" and all this sort of shit. All whining, no positive thinking.

Whilst the Guardian can be a bit too airy-fairy and is far from perfect as a news source, it's a much better paper overall than the Daily Mail.
lolwut
Like this. So some young woman who doesn't do any work for a living yet just happens to be rich and famous likes to cover her body in these scars of ink. I hate tattoos too, but she's just a stupid bitch who isn't smart enough to have better aesthetic taste. It's her own idiocy, and not even worth talking about.

And this. It's a pretty exceptional case, but when they complain about 'kids having kids' and 'broken Britain' and all that fucking shite it comes across as more pathetic than the people they're complaining about. An anthropologist could tell you that your postmodern middle England is schizophrenic when it comes to these things. Throughout the non-Western world, and indeed in the past in the Western world, it is/was the norm for young people, probably not as young as 13, but young people, teenagers and twentysomethings, to be having children. That's more biologically normal than putting fortysomething women through IVF treatment or whatever fucked up shit they do because they feel a 'career' is more important. This notion that everyone has to have a 'career' is a destructive way of thinking and is not universalisable. I hate the bullshit concept of a 'service-sector oriented society'. You need a large proportion of the population, especially men, to work in hard industry, you idiots, like used to happen in the UK. Unfortunately, that ain't really happening much at all anymore, hence the rise in the sorts of deviant activity that these paranoid fucks at the Daily Mail get so wound up about.
emesee
it seems like Wikimedia has received some not so good, somewhat-mainstream press as of late.

is everything ok?
The Wales Hunter
QUOTE(lolwut @ Mon 16th February 2009, 6:31pm) *

Whilst the Guardian can be a bit too airy-fairy and is far from perfect as a news source, it's a much better paper overall than the Daily Mail.


Personal opinion, of course, but to describe the Guardian as "a bit too airy-fairy" is like describing the short-to-medium term future of the UK Labour Party as "a bit below average" laugh.gif
Peter Damian
Mostly I don't read newspapers, but study and write about the history of logic instead. One useful device in logic is to list out the claims made in numbered format, with the conclusion at the end, then see if the argument is valid (the conclusion follows from the premiss) and whether it is sound (the premisses are true). As follows.

QUOTE(lolwut @ Mon 16th February 2009, 6:42pm) *

1. An anthropologist could tell you that your postmodern middle England is schizophrenic when it comes to these things.

2. Throughout the non-Western world, and indeed in the past in the Western world, it is/was the norm for young people, probably not as young as 13, but young people, teenagers and twentysomethings, to be having children.

3. That's more biologically normal than putting fortysomething women through IVF treatment or whatever fucked up shit they do because they feel a 'career' is more important.

4. This notion that everyone has to have a 'career' is a destructive way of thinking and is not universalisable.

5. You need a large proportion of the population, especially men, to work in hard industry, you idiots, like used to happen in the UK.

6. Unfortunately, that ain't really happening much at all anymore,

7. Hence the rise in the sorts of deviant activity that these paranoid fucks at the Daily Mail get so wound up about.

Bottled_Spider
QUOTE(dogbiscuit @ Mon 16th February 2009, 4:15pm) *
The importance of the Daily Mail is that it is the Unthinking Man's Guide to the World. It is reactionary conservative and casually serves up plausible half-truths which are accepted uncritically by a significant section of the population.

The ultimate British unthinking man, Alan Partridge, has described the Daily Mail as "arguably the best newspaper in the world". Back of the net!
Peter Damian
QUOTE(Bottled_Spider @ Mon 16th February 2009, 8:20pm) *

QUOTE(dogbiscuit @ Mon 16th February 2009, 4:15pm) *
The importance of the Daily Mail is that it is the Unthinking Man's Guide to the World. It is reactionary conservative and casually serves up plausible half-truths which are accepted uncritically by a significant section of the population.

The ultimate British unthinking man, Alan Partridge, has described the Daily Mail as "arguably the best newspaper in the world". Back of the net!


That was quite a good article, at least the first sections, after that you got the impression it was never going to end. I liked section 2.5:

QUOTE
(Note: in the fictional world of Alan Partridge, this was not a documentary, but actually a "post-documentary". In the commentary on the DVD, Alan explains that all the events depicted in the series actually occurred, but everyone in the show, apart from himself and his personal assistant Lynn Benfield (played by Felicity Montagu who went on to play a vicar's wife in Nighty Night (2004)), were actors hired to portray the events in the Linton Travel Tavern "after they had actually occurred".)


I imagine myself trapped on the next seat of a plane with the author of this article, long-haul to Tokyo or somewhere. So many things to learn ...
Bottled_Spider
QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Mon 16th February 2009, 9:09pm) *
That was quite a good article, at least the first sections, after that you got the impression it was never going to end.

I remember it being much longer ........ it's been pruned-down a lot since I last looked at it.
QUOTE
I imagine myself trapped on the next seat of a plane with the author of this article, long-haul to Tokyo or somewhere. So many things to learn ...

I suspect that Partridge himself has been socking on his own article. Come to think of it, I'm positive I've seen his interference on just about every single Wiki article I've ever read. Not bad, considering he's (probably) a fictional character. Scum. Sub-human scum.
EricBarbour
QUOTE(Bottled_Spider @ Mon 16th February 2009, 3:47pm) *

I suspect that Partridge himself has been socking on his own article. Come to think of it, I'm positive I've seen his interference on just about every single Wiki article I've ever read. Not bad, considering he's (probably) a fictional character.

Probably???

You are one funny, funny guy. Slap yourself in the face for me.
Cla68
I would support this:

QUOTE
...as could conceivably happen, it were taken over and commercialised (and perhaps made a professional service) by someone like Bill Gates or Google...


If money were involved, then perhaps the site's governance system would be improved. I participate in it to write attractive-looking articles about topics I enjoy writing about. I don't really care if the website includes advertising. I do care if POV-pushers and flamewarriors are being allowed to use the site for their own, nefarious agendas.
luke
example Mail BLP angry.gif pots and kettles. and the recent sustained bigotry over gay adoption....no The Mail doesn't come to this issue with clean hands. not at all. Just checked, and I see the article still refers to..
QUOTE
.. Larry Sanger, a website editor
Well, not to be pernickety ...
UseOnceAndDestroy
QUOTE(luke @ Tue 17th February 2009, 6:44am) *

example Mail BLP angry.gif pots and kettles. and the recent sustained bigotry over gay adoption....no The Mail doesn't come to this issue with clean hands. not at all.

See them little words under the headline, after the word "By"? That's the name of the person that can be sued. Even if its fake, the company that publishes can be sued too.

Any random berk cannot change the article. Someone is taking responsibility for its contents.

Do you understand the difference?



Bottled_Spider
QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Tue 17th February 2009, 12:00am) *
QUOTE(Bottled_Spider @ Mon 16th February 2009, 3:47pm) *
I suspect that Partridge himself has been socking on his own article. Come to think of it, I'm positive I've seen his interference on just about every single Wiki article I've ever read. Not bad, considering he's (probably) a fictional character.
Probably???
You are one funny, funny guy. Slap yourself in the face for me.

Masochism isn't "my thing", but will a (probably) fictional one do?
luke
QUOTE(UseOnceAndDestroy @ Tue 17th February 2009, 8:39am) *

QUOTE(luke @ Tue 17th February 2009, 6:44am) *

example Mail BLP angry.gif pots and kettles. and the recent sustained bigotry over gay adoption....no The Mail doesn't come to this issue with clean hands. not at all.

See them little words under the headline, after the word "By"? That's the name of the person that can be sued. Even if its fake, the company that publishes can be sued too.

Any random berk cannot change the article. Someone is taking responsibility for its contents.

Do you understand the difference?

The Edinburgh couple or Larry Sanger will sue The Mail?

As to the tort of libel and the UK courts, there was a December 2008 parliamentary debate about libel tourism which makes interesting reading. Denis MacShane MP said:-
QUOTE
.. The practice of libel tourism as it is known—the willingness of British courts to allow wealthy foreigners who do not live here to attack publications that have no connection with Britain—is now an international scandal. It shames Britain and makes a mockery of the idea that Britain is a protector of core democratic freedoms. Libel tourism sounds innocuous, but underneath the banal phrase is a major assault on freedom of information, which in today’s complex world is more necessary than ever if evil, such as the jihad ideology that led to the Mumbai massacres, is not to flourish, and if those who traffic arms, blood diamonds, drugs and money to support Islamist extremist organisations that hide behind charitable status are not to be exposed...I put it to the House that it is unbelievable that the state legislatures of New York and Illinois, and Congress itself, are having to pass Bills to stop British courts seeking to fine and punish American journalists and writers for publishing books and articles that may be freely read in the United States but which a British judge has decided are offensive to wealthy foreigners who can hire lawyers in Britain to persuade a British court to become a new Soviet-style organ of censorship against freedom of expression.



groody
QUOTE(luke @ Wed 18th February 2009, 12:05am) *
Denis MacShane MP said:-
QUOTE
.. The practice of libel tourism as it is known—the willingness of British courts to allow wealthy foreigners who do not live here to attack publications that have no connection with Britain—is now an international scandal. It shames Britain and makes a mockery of the idea that Britain is a protector of core democratic freedoms. Libel tourism sounds innocuous, but underneath the banal phrase is a major assault on freedom of information, which in today’s complex world is more necessary than ever if evil, such as the jihad ideology that led to the Mumbai massacres, is not to flourish, and if those who traffic arms, blood diamonds, drugs and money to support Islamist extremist organisations that hide behind charitable status are not to be exposed...I put it to the House that it is unbelievable that the state legislatures of New York and Illinois, and Congress itself, are having to pass Bills to stop British courts seeking to fine and punish American journalists and writers for publishing books and articles that may be freely read in the United States but which a British judge has decided are offensive to wealthy foreigners who can hire lawyers in Britain to persuade a British court to become a new Soviet-style organ of censorship against freedom of expression.



All he needs to do is add in a bit of "NuLiar", "GRODON CLOWN" and so on, and it could be a post to the BBC's "Have Your Say" site. see also http://ifyoulikeitsomuchwhydontyougolivethere.com
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