Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: No Personal Attacks - a history lesson
> Wikimedia Discussion > General Discussion
Kato
I took a look at the original draft of the policy WP:No Personal Attacks from 2002.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...ev&oldid=596665

QUOTE(WP:No personal attacks 2002)
No personal attacks on the Wikipedia, period. No calling people trolls, no calling people Stupid White Men, no accusations of any kind relating to the character of another person, nor their race, creed, sex, national origin, etc. The only thing that matters is the articles, not the people who write them.

Unlike the other rules, which are community conventions enforced only by our mutual agreement, this one may also be implemented in extreme cases as policy,

i.e. grounds for banning that go beyond our traditional "sheer vandalism" threshold.
If you support this rule, then you support the idea that Jimbo should, in extreme cases after considerable consultation with the community and the offender, actually cut someone off from participation.

Likewise, when a debate threatens to become personal, confer about the problem in e-mail. If parties to a dispute start exchanging insults or other unpleasant words, it's preferable to confer privately in e-mail rather than continuing to expose Wikipedia to the unpleasantness. This is not to say that the debate should be moved to e-mail, because the debate is in most cases of genuine public interest. So the substantive debate should remain where it is; the unpleasant personal problems should be discussed, as necessary, privately.


This is a far cry from what the policy became. See how the opening line is "No calling people trolls", and recall that by Wikipedia's worst era (circa 2007), the policy had morphed into almost the opposite of its intended purpose. Hardcore Wikipedios, notably Phil Sandifer, changed the policy around 2005 to reflect a completely different ethic, to the point that the policy had accompanying pages such as Wikipedia:Dealing with trolls and Wikipedia:What is a troll?.

Recall as well that around 2007, all manner of behavior was being considered actionable under the WP:No Personal Attacks policy. Including merely editing the same page as powerful editors like SlimVirgin. Instead of the original premise of "The only thing that matters is the articles, not the people who write them", it became all about the "people who write them", and how so stop those people. Ask an administrator like JzG.
Milton Roe
QUOTE(Kato @ Fri 31st July 2009, 8:19am) *

This is a far cry from what the policy became. See how the opening line is "No calling people trolls", and recall that by Wikipedia's worst era (circa 2007), the policy had morphed into almost the opposite of its intended purpose. Hardcore Wikipedios, notably Phil Sandifer, changed the policy around 2005 to reflect a completely different ethic, to the point that the policy had accompanying pages such as Wikipedia:Dealing with trolls and Wikipedia:What is a troll?.

Recall as well that around 2007, all manner of behavior was being considered actionable under the WP:No Personal Attacks policy. Including merely editing the same page as powerful editors like SlimVirgin. Instead of the original premise of "The only thing that matters is the articles, not the people who write them", it became all about the "people who write them", and how so stop those people.


Yep.

QUOTE(2002 policy)

If you support this rule, then you support the idea that Jimbo should, in extreme cases after considerable consultation with the community and the offender, actually cut someone off from participation.


Here assumed that it would be implemented as a Jimbo ban: "in extreme cases after considerable consultation with the community and the offender," he would... wait for it "actually cut someone off from participation." ohmy.gif Ohnooos.

This "evolved" from Jimbo himself casually refering to people as trolls or trolling, both on his talk page and in his edit summaries. And the "community" didn't wait for Jimbo to act in extreme cases after considerably consultaton with the community and offender. It got so that some admin just pushed the block button on what would usually become a "community ban," on pain of having to start a wheelwar otherwise (another problem with wikipedia-- whatever one admins decides to do, becomes a "community decision," if you add it to the policy that one admin is not supposed to undo another admin's actions, except in extreme cases).

So here we are. Banning people for NPA is easier. Jimbo has broken his own rules about troll-calling more than once, and so have many a blocking admin. I guess you just have to label this as "a policy in evolution." wink.gif
Kato
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Fri 31st July 2009, 6:25pm) *

And the "community" didn't wait for Jimbo to act in extreme cases after considerably consultaton with the community and offender. It got so that some admin just pushed the block button on what would usually becomce a "community ban" on pain of having to start a wheelwar otherwise (another problem with wikipedia-- whatever one admins decides to do, because a "community decision" if one admin is not supposed to undo another admin's actions except in extreme cases).

I think it was Jon Awbrey and Herschelkrustofky who were notably "community banned" by only a small group of editors for strange reasons. Not the community all. The wider community had no say it, and if they tried, they'd have been in trouble themselves. Think Cla68 etc.

This small clique (which contained much of the same people) were not only outrageously biased in matters of content, but almost unanimously turned out to be up to far worse than Awbrey and Hersch themselves! Think Jossi etc.
thekohser
QUOTE(Kato @ Fri 31st July 2009, 1:50pm) *

I think it was Jon Awbrey and Herschelkrustofky who were notably "community banned" by only a small group of editors for strange reasons. Not the community all. The wider community had no say it, and if they tried, they'd have been in trouble themselves. Think Cla68 etc.

This small clique (which contained much of the same people) were not only outrageously biased in matters of content, but almost unanimously turned out to be up to far worse than Awbrey and Hersch themselves! Think Jossi etc.


I believe 9 people weighed in on my community ban, which was open for discussion for 14 hours. I hadn't ever heard of about half of the voters, but the other half were all personal antagonists of mine.
MBisanz
QUOTE(thekohser @ Fri 31st July 2009, 6:59pm) *

QUOTE(Kato @ Fri 31st July 2009, 1:50pm) *

I think it was Jon Awbrey and Herschelkrustofky who were notably "community banned" by only a small group of editors for strange reasons. Not the community all. The wider community had no say it, and if they tried, they'd have been in trouble themselves. Think Cla68 etc.

This small clique (which contained much of the same people) were not only outrageously biased in matters of content, but almost unanimously turned out to be up to far worse than Awbrey and Hersch themselves! Think Jossi etc.


I believe 9 people weighed in on my community ban, which was open for discussion for 14 hours. I hadn't ever heard of about half of the voters, but the other half were all personal antagonists of mine.


One of the issues with bans is that there is no ruleset on how to discuss a ban. Even non-binding RFC/Us have more form to them then a ban discussion. I once proposed WP:RFBAN as a more process-oriented solution, but given that the meme for the failed WP:Administrators' noticeboard/Community sanction was "Requests for Banning", I soon realized it was not a proposal I would have success with.
One
QUOTE(MBisanz @ Fri 31st July 2009, 6:17pm) *

One of the issues with bans is that there is no ruleset on how to discuss a ban. Even non-binding RFC/Us have more form to them then a ban discussion. I once proposed WP:RFBAN as a more process-oriented solution, but given that the meme for the failed WP:Administrators' noticeboard/Community sanction was "Requests for Banning", I soon realized it was not a proposal I would have success with.

Wikipedia would be a lot better on several fronts if it didn't have to work around several half-baked memes, the biggest one being "consensus." Mob like; it bounces from individual extreme to extreme, and moderation doesn't really help because nothing is going to have "consensus" anyway.
RMHED
QUOTE(thekohser @ Fri 31st July 2009, 6:59pm) *

QUOTE(Kato @ Fri 31st July 2009, 1:50pm) *

I think it was Jon Awbrey and Herschelkrustofky who were notably "community banned" by only a small group of editors for strange reasons. Not the community all. The wider community had no say it, and if they tried, they'd have been in trouble themselves. Think Cla68 etc.

This small clique (which contained much of the same people) were not only outrageously biased in matters of content, but almost unanimously turned out to be up to far worse than Awbrey and Hersch themselves! Think Jossi etc.


I believe 9 people weighed in on my community ban, which was open for discussion for 14 hours. I hadn't ever heard of about half of the voters, but the other half were all personal antagonists of mine.

My ban discussion lasted 12 hours and 15 supported the ban with none opposing it. Guess that makes me more unpopular than you. tongue.gif
Kelly Martin
QUOTE(One @ Fri 31st July 2009, 1:41pm) *
Wikipedia would be a lot better on several fronts if it didn't have to work around several half-baked memes, the biggest one being "consensus." Mob like; it bounces from individual extreme to extreme, and moderation doesn't really help because nothing is going to have "consensus" anyway.
Wikipedia's almost religious veneration of "consensus" is a very large part of its ongoing difficulties. Of course, you'll never get consensus to do away with consensus. Then again, the Constutitional Convention never got unanimous consent to do away with the Articles of Confederation, either. smile.gif
Angela Kennedy
I'm a bit of an enigma. As far as I could tell, I was excommunicated by Jimbo himself (as is anyone to do with me, including my children and my children's children, apparently).

But I was also supposedly banned for 'making legal threats' after JzG defamed me.

But I'm not 100% sure which one is the actual ban. As far as I can see it wasn't 'consensus' as such. I was excommunicated by the God-King himself (and my children and children's children, of course).

I've put the emails up on here somewhere, I believe.
RMHED
QUOTE(Angela Kennedy @ Fri 31st July 2009, 10:39pm) *

I'm a bit of an enigma. As far as I could tell, I was excommunicated by Jimbo himself (as is anyone to do with me, including my children and my children's children, apparently).

But I was also supposedly banned for 'making legal threats' after JzG defamed me.

But I'm not 100% sure which one is the actual ban. As far as I can see it wasn't 'consensus' as such. I was excommunicated by the God-King himself (and my children and children's children, of course).

I've put the emails up on here somewhere, I believe.

Wear your excommunication as a badge of honour Angela.
Kelly Martin
QUOTE(RMHED @ Fri 31st July 2009, 4:55pm) *
Wear your excommunication as a badge of honour Angela. Jimmy Wales can barely tell his arse from his elbow, the man is retarded.
I never did get my official SP Declare from him. He's such a buttsnorkel.
Moulton
Lessee... First KillerChihuahua indef blocked me on behalf of IDCab, skipping the community notice board process altogether.

My case divided the community, which couldn't come to decision other than to throw up their hands.

ArbCom declined to review the case, although it later smacked down FeloniousMonk for multiple offenses comparable to the ones he committed against me.

Then, on Wikiversity, IDCab swooped in to derail a course and workshop on ethics, eventually summoning Cary Bass and Jimbo Wales to back them up.

I beat Jimbo's brains out on IRC (no big achievement), so he site-banned me.

Any questions?
Cla68
QUOTE(MBisanz @ Fri 31st July 2009, 6:17pm) *

QUOTE(thekohser @ Fri 31st July 2009, 6:59pm) *

QUOTE(Kato @ Fri 31st July 2009, 1:50pm) *

I think it was Jon Awbrey and Herschelkrustofky who were notably "community banned" by only a small group of editors for strange reasons. Not the community all. The wider community had no say it, and if they tried, they'd have been in trouble themselves. Think Cla68 etc.

This small clique (which contained much of the same people) were not only outrageously biased in matters of content, but almost unanimously turned out to be up to far worse than Awbrey and Hersch themselves! Think Jossi etc.


I believe 9 people weighed in on my community ban, which was open for discussion for 14 hours. I hadn't ever heard of about half of the voters, but the other half were all personal antagonists of mine.


One of the issues with bans is that there is no ruleset on how to discuss a ban. Even non-binding RFC/Us have more form to them then a ban discussion. I once proposed WP:RFBAN as a more process-oriented solution, but given that the meme for the failed WP:Administrators' noticeboard/Community sanction was "Requests for Banning", I soon realized it was not a proposal I would have success with.


The lack of structure and formalized, established procedures/checklists for handling repetitive processes, like blocks, bans, vandalism, etc is a big problem with Wikipedia's current governance (or lack thereof).

Anyway, Kato is right about how the former ruling clique and a few others appear to have manipulated the NPA policy to serve their own ends. Those sub-sections on trolls helped them to justify blocks and bans of editors, especially newbies, who got in their way, such as by accusing them of POV-pushing and admin abuse.

Kato is also right (stated in another thread) in that an outside, independent panel needs to look at Wikipedia's governance, including the current state of the policies and guidelines, and reorganize the whole lot as they see fit.
Moulton
QUOTE(Cla68 @ Sat 1st August 2009, 10:41am) *
The lack of structure and formalized, established procedures/checklists for handling repetitive processes, like blocks, bans, vandalism, etc is a big problem with Wikipedia's current governance (or lack thereof).

Any large project needs a comprehensive set of protocols and procedures for handling repetitive tasks and recurring issues in a uniform and consistent manner, to avoid devolving into warring cliques and factions. It's astonishing that Wikipedia has bumbled along for so long without a well-crafted constitution or social contract setting forth such procedures (especially for conflict resolution over content issues).

QUOTE(Cla68 @ Sat 1st August 2009, 10:41am) *
An outside, independent panel needs to look at Wikipedia's governance, including the current state of the policies and guidelines, and reorganize the whole lot as they see fit.

I expect this issue will emerge as the central make-it-or-break-it issue in the year ahead.

NYBrad said he was going to speak on this issue at last weekend's meetup in NYC. Has NYBrad published a summary of his remarks anywhere? Is there a forum where committed Wikipedians are convening themselves for a Constitutional Convention, along the lines of the Founders of the US model or other contemporary models of successful online communities (e.g. Debian Linux)?
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.