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timbo
QUOTE(dogbiscuit @ Thu 8th March 2012, 12:30am) *

Stepping back for a moment, what does this tell us?

The WMF, the board that is responsible for the health of the project, has admitted when they tries to implement a simple change in the project to try and ensure that people were not unwittingly exposed to controversial content that they were subject to bullying and abuse from the community and therefore they changed their mind.

Now let's link that with Commons. There we have clear evidence that an unsavoury bunch of characters are using the project to further their own ideology on controversial content. In the process of doing this they are prepared to foster admitted pedophiles and when challenged are now going around altering the history of the project to cover up some of their tactical errors. There is a small reactive response to specific issues, but there is no sign that there is any controlling body that is going to attempt any corrective action.

So the WMF has no control over the policies of Wikimedia; accepts being bullied out of making decisions to improve the reach and acceptability of the project; and has no control over the ruling elite of the various projects and that the board members are content to operate in such an environment.

Now, let's consider where this leaves Wiki UK Ltd. They have claimed that there is policy that directs the proper governance of the project, yet here we have a fine example of an attempt at implementing a responsible publishing policy and they admit that they have no ability to implement it.

The joys of mob rule.


WMF knows they have a problem with Commons. They don't understand that there is only one way to fix it, given the fact that there are legal barriers to their micro-managing content — and that is to blow the mother up, assigning image hosting to the various language-WPs with a mandate that graphic content is to have educational connection via article links.

The image filter remains the key to the problem, in their view. If only there were a way to sift out the terrabytes of dix pix, then everything would be peachy. Actually, no, the right wing is gonna make political hay out of Commons porn forever and donors and serious contributors are going to be driven away as the porn hobbyists continue to entrench themselves.

Still, this has not been noted: the last time the vaunted image filter was put up for a vote the Muhammed Images issue was running hot. I myself opposed it on this basis, I don't want to make it simple for reactionary governments to "filter" content which they find uncomfortable. I'm not quite positive how a second try at the brass ring will turn out for WMF, particularly if they were to pare down the filtering capabilities to make it clear that their filter is about porn rather than "violence" or "religiously sensitive matters"...

t
lilburne
QUOTE(timbo @ Fri 9th March 2012, 5:45pm) *

[Still, this has not been noted: the last time the vaunted image filter was put up for a vote the Muhammed Images issue was running hot. I myself opposed it on this basis, I don't want to make it simple for reactionary governments to "filter" content which they find uncomfortable. I'm not quite positive how a second try at the brass ring will turn out for WMF, particularly if they were to pare down the filtering capabilities to make it clear that their filter is about porn rather than "violence" or "religiously sensitive matters"...

t


Sorry but this reactionary government thing is crap. Over on flickr the content gets censored by Governments all the time. Flickr is almost continually banned in China and Iran. Yet I have a number of Chinese and Iranian contacts on flickr. How is that possible? Well because firefox and chrome addins to bypass the filters are readily available. The filters will be just as useful to reactionary governments as the Firewall of China is. The filters will only be effective at the personal level.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/henry_wang/59...157627022541053
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rickytang/set...57629041828795/

dogbiscuit
QUOTE(Michaeldsuarez @ Sat 10th March 2012, 12:25am) *

I'm impressed.
EricBarbour
QUOTE(dogbiscuit @ Fri 9th March 2012, 4:35pm) *

QUOTE(Michaeldsuarez @ Sat 10th March 2012, 12:25am) *
I'm impressed.

I'm not. Partly because I've looked into Mr. De La Motte's personal history. He's an academic with a
master's degree, with a history of published papers and a career of working for nonprofits that
actually do something.

And what does he do with his spare time? He pisses around on Wikimedia Commons, fighting to defend a child-porn fan.

Most likely he started that proposal because someone threatened him into it.
Mooby
Dumb question perhaps, but if image filtering is something people want, why aren't there enterprising third party software developers raking in money by churning out plugins for that?

If I had kids I'd probably spring for a $10 plugin to keep the images of autofellatio and whatnot from showing up on the family PC. It'd be nice if WP did it themselves but it's not like if they don't do it no one could... or is it?

-Mooby
Somey
QUOTE(Mooby @ Sat 10th March 2012, 1:09am) *
Dumb question perhaps, but if image filtering is something people want, why aren't there enterprising third party software developers raking in money by churning out plugins for that?

If I had kids I'd probably spring for a $10 plugin to keep the images of autofellatio and whatnot from showing up on the family PC. It'd be nice if WP did it themselves but it's not like if they don't do it no one could... or is it?

Welcome to WR, Mr. Mooby!

It's not a dumb question at all, but it would always be better to have the roll-up/blocking code run on the server, because it would be far less-easily defeated (presumably by the kids themselves). There are already third-party plugins like Image Blocker for Firefox that will do things like that, but even if that worked consistently well, whoever is running the browser could probably disable it fairly easily, or else just switch to another browser.

Even then, the problem is figuring out which images to block and which not to - and that's the real issue for The Faithful. The code has almost certainly already been written, the problem is getting people there to actually be accountable.
HRIP7
QUOTE(Mooby @ Sat 10th March 2012, 7:09am) *

Dumb question perhaps, but if image filtering is something people want, why aren't there enterprising third party software developers raking in money by churning out plugins for that?

If I had kids I'd probably spring for a $10 plugin to keep the images of autofellatio and whatnot from showing up on the family PC. It'd be nice if WP did it themselves but it's not like if they don't do it no one could... or is it?

-Mooby
That's a completely stupid idea (apart from also being in the wrong discussion thread). Can you see that approach working for Flickr, or Google, or YouTube?

Welcome to Wikipedia Review! smile.gif
Somey
QUOTE(HRIP7 @ Sat 10th March 2012, 1:23am) *
That's a completely stupid idea (apart from also being in the wrong discussion thread). Can you see that approach working for Flickr, or Google, or YouTube?

I'd have to assume local image-blocker plugins already work for those sites, don't they? I'm concerned that you didn't understand what he's suggesting.
HRIP7
QUOTE(Somey @ Sat 10th March 2012, 7:25am) *

QUOTE(HRIP7 @ Sat 10th March 2012, 1:23am) *
That's a completely stupid idea (apart from also being in the wrong discussion thread). Can you see that approach working for Flickr, or Google, or YouTube?

I'd have to assume local image-blocker plugins already work for those sites, don't they? I'm concerned that you didn't understand what he's suggesting.
I thought he was suggesting that Flickr, for example, would have all their porn in plain sight. (At present, you have to opt in to see it.) And then, someone could program a third-party bolt-on so that, even though all their porn is in plain sight, you won't see it. Which would strike me as supremely daft. Did I miss something?
Somey
QUOTE(HRIP7 @ Sat 10th March 2012, 1:30am) *
I thought he was suggesting that Flickr, for example, would have all their porn in plain sight. (At present, you have to opt in to see it.) And then, someone could program a third-party bolt-on so that, even though all their porn is in plain sight, you won't see it. Which would strike me as supremely daft. Did I miss something?

Well, maybe Mr. Mooby can clarify, but since he mentioned that as a parent he'd be willing to buy an add-on for this, I assumed this was a browser plugin, not something that image-hosting sites would be involved in themselves (i.e., Flickr's rules wouldn't change).

If so, then in theory the plugin developer could also maintain a list of WP categories known to contain lots of porn, and make it available on a free server for users of the plugin to connect to... but since the images themselves are not tagged in the article pages, the plugin would have to do a bandwidth-intensive load of the image's own page to see if it's in one of those categories. And of course, those categories could be changed or removed at any time.

And I can say with some assurance that software developers don't enjoy making products that are dependent on the whims of others over whom they have little or no influence, because their customers aren't going to complain to those others, they're going to complain to the developer. You might make a few bucks selling the add-on to a few people, but then you might go into negative value just trying to deal with the support calls.
Mooby
Thanks for the welcomes and apologies for posting in the wrong thread (had two tabs open... I promise to get the hang of this quickly!)

-Mooby
Somey
QUOTE(Mooby @ Sat 10th March 2012, 1:44am) *
Thanks for the welcomes and apologies for posting in the wrong thread (had two tabs open... I promise to get the hang of this quickly!)

Ah, I've just fixed that. Should have done that earlier, sorry...
HRIP7
QUOTE(Somey @ Sat 10th March 2012, 7:42am) *

QUOTE(HRIP7 @ Sat 10th March 2012, 1:30am) *
I thought he was suggesting that Flickr, for example, would have all their porn in plain sight. (At present, you have to opt in to see it.) And then, someone could program a third-party bolt-on so that, even though all their porn is in plain sight, you won't see it. Which would strike me as supremely daft. Did I miss something?

Well, maybe Mr. Mooby can clarify, but since he mentioned that as a parent he'd be willing to buy an add-on for this, I assumed this was a browser plugin, not something that image-hosting sites would be involved in themselves (i.e., Flickr's rules wouldn't change).

If so, then in theory the plugin developer could also maintain a list of WP categories known to contain lots of porn, and make it available on a free server for users of the plugin to connect to... but since the images themselves are not tagged in the article pages, the plugin would have to do a bandwidth-intensive load of the image's own page to see if it's in one of those categories. And of course, those categories could be changed or removed at any time.

And I can say with some assurance that software developers don't enjoy making products that are dependent on the whims of others over whom they have little or no influence, because their customers aren't going to complain to those others, they're going to complain to the developer. You might make a few bucks selling the add-on to a few people, but then you might go into negative value just trying to deal with the support calls.

Quite. The reason I reacted with ill temper to the suggestion was that this is one of the gambits always made whenever there is an image filter discussion on the Foundation list. "Oh, if people really were so keen to have an image filter for Commons / Wikipedia, someone would program one and make millions!"

Now, could you imagine Yahoo!, Flickr's owners, making that argument to the world? shrug.gif

QUOTE(Mooby @ Sat 10th March 2012, 7:44am) *

Thanks for the welcomes and apologies for posting in the wrong thread (had two tabs open... I promise to get the hang of this quickly!)

-Mooby

No probs. Sorry I was grumpy. ermm.gif
Mooby
Yes, I was thinking about a browser-side plugin. But let me be the first to admit I have no clue about Internet economics. I use all sorts of free Firefox plugins that seem to get updated regularly... seems like it would be simple enough (well, maybe not simple, but not rocket science either) to set up something that would parse the html coming from WP and see if any of the images the page wants to load match a blacklist downloaded from somewhere. Quite possible I'm not thinking of an important step in the middle, though.

-Mooby
TungstenCarbide
QUOTE(Mooby @ Sat 10th March 2012, 8:03am) *

Yes, I was thinking about a browser-side plugin. But let me be the first to admit I have no clue about Internet economics. I use all sorts of free Firefox plugins that seem to get updated regularly... seems like it would be simple enough (well, maybe not simple, but not rocket science either) to set up something that would parse the html coming from WP and see if any of the images the page wants to load match a blacklist downloaded from somewhere. Quite possible I'm not thinking of an important step in the middle, though.

It's true, sometimes you can use duct tape and bailing wire to do a shitty job of repairing someone else's fuckup.
Mooby
QUOTE(HRIP7 @ Sat 10th March 2012, 2:57am) *

No probs. Sorry I was grumpy. ermm.gif


No worries, I'm sure it's irritating to have a n00b say "hey what about this?" if it's already been discussed to death previously. biggrin.gif

-Mooby
HRIP7
QUOTE(Mooby @ Sat 10th March 2012, 8:11am) *

QUOTE(HRIP7 @ Sat 10th March 2012, 2:57am) *

No probs. Sorry I was grumpy. ermm.gif


No worries, I'm sure it's irritating to have a n00b say "hey what about this?" if it's already been discussed to death previously. biggrin.gif

-Mooby

You may enjoy this page (or looking at it may cause you to rapidly lose interest in the topic).
lilburne
They need a few controls flickr has 3 setting which aren't quite enough as they only really deal with sex and nudity, and some don't mind hardcore porn but don't like violence. So you want filters.
  • mild nudity
  • pornography
  • mild violence
  • gore
  • religious personages

Can't decide whether X is in group A or B. Crowd source it. flickr does it by allowing users to flag an item as being wrongly flagged.
Fusion
QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Sat 10th March 2012, 12:40am) *

QUOTE(dogbiscuit @ Fri 9th March 2012, 4:35pm) *

I'm impressed.

I'm not.

Dogfight!
dogbiscuit
QUOTE(Fusion @ Sat 10th March 2012, 2:25pm) *

QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Sat 10th March 2012, 12:40am) *

QUOTE(dogbiscuit @ Fri 9th March 2012, 4:35pm) *

I'm impressed.

I'm not.

Dogfight!

Mine was an edit down of a longer post that someone who I am entirely unsure of due to being involved in ED was prepared to take a proper stance on this. Even if it is ineffective, it becomes a record of the determination of Commons to take a stance that is entirely at odds with the real world custom and practice on these matters.
Michaeldsuarez
http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?t...&oldid=68144400

The people on Commons are advocating the blocking of whistleblowers. If you find unsettling or disturbing facts about a person on Commons, they'll block you for revealing such information. They'll block you for stating facts that they're uncomfortable about hearing.
Michaeldsuarez
QUOTE(Michaeldsuarez @ Sat 10th March 2012, 2:46pm) *

http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?t...&oldid=68144400

The people on Commons are advocating the blocking of whistleblowers. If you find unsettling or disturbing facts about a person on Commons, they'll block you for revealing such information. They'll block you for stating facts that they're uncomfortable about hearing.


http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?t...&oldid=68148893

They favor creating a chilling effect.
EricBarbour
Pierre Selim is one of the worst Commons "editors". So far as I can tell, he posts thousands of sports photos
that no one ever uses in any WMF project, uses bots to reformat/rename/recategorize images,
and argues with people on talkpages. That's all. He uses Commons as a hobby. wacko.gif

And they made him a Commons administrator last month.....

It seems to me that the talkpage in question resembles a gang of bullies, meeting during recess
in the boy's toilet, and calmly discussing whether to beat up the new kid after class.
Michaeldsuarez
http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?titl...7&oldid=3546718

http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?titl...8&oldid=3556546

They're trying to relabel the "Meta:Pedophilia" page as some evil, cancerous infection from enwiki.
Michaeldsuarez
QUOTE(Michaeldsuarez @ Sun 11th March 2012, 1:45pm) *

http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?titl...7&oldid=3546718

http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?titl...8&oldid=3556546

They're trying to relabel the "Meta:Pedophilia" page as some evil, cancerous infection from enwiki.


http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?t...&oldid=68186246

Commons is expressing some xenophobia as well.
Michaeldsuarez
QUOTE(Michaeldsuarez @ Sun 11th March 2012, 1:45pm) *

http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?titl...7&oldid=3546718

http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?titl...8&oldid=3556546

They're trying to relabel the "Meta:Pedophilia" page as some evil, cancerous infection from enwiki.


http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?titl...page=Pedophilia

http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?titl...9&oldid=3563311

Nemo_bis has protected and blanked the page.
Tarc
Avraham e-mailed me this morning asking me to redact my last reply to Stefan, but I guess the blanking saved me the trouble of telling him to go fuck himself.
SB_Johnny
QUOTE(Michaeldsuarez @ Sun 11th March 2012, 3:11pm) *

QUOTE(Michaeldsuarez @ Sun 11th March 2012, 1:45pm) *

http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?titl...7&oldid=3546718

http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?titl...8&oldid=3556546

They're trying to relabel the "Meta:Pedophilia" page as some evil, cancerous infection from enwiki.


http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?t...&oldid=68186246

Commons is expressing some xenophobia as well.

You mean Xenaphobia, I presume?

Image
Michaeldsuarez
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wik.../News_and_notes

Here's the Signpost's report on the issues.
Mooby
QUOTE(Larry Sanger @ Wed 7th March 2012, 10:10pm) *


I just read the Larry Sanger piece. Larry points out that WP's vulva article has a lot of vulvas on it. Boy, does it ever! There are like 20 of the things, not counting the cave drawing that looks like Pac-Man.

There's even this Brady-Bunch style collage with 9 of them, except where, in the Brady Bunch, you'd have Ann B. Davis in the middle, here there's just another vulva.

But yeah, I have to agree with Larry that it's pretty messed up that they canceled the opt out filter due to higher priorities. Like, the MoodBar, I guess? Maybe if enough people register and click the "Editing Wikipedia made me sad because..." MoodBar button and add "...I didn't like seeing what that dog did that to that nun" they'll bump the priority up a bit? Or not, probably.

-Mooby
Mooby
QUOTE(thekohser @ Thu 15th March 2012, 12:16pm) *

QUOTE(Mooby @ Thu 15th March 2012, 11:56am) *

There's even this Brady-Bunch style collage with 9 of them, except where, in the Brady Bunch, you'd have Ann B. Davis in the middle, here there's just another vulva.

Mooby is my new favorite guy on Wikipedia Review. I know he's a guy, because only a guy would make the Ann B. Davis reference in such a hilariously sardonic way.


Ha ha! Thanks Kohs. It occurs to me that they have a free image of ABD on there, so one could indeed swap her in the middle of that collage (as sort of a palate-cleanser from the crotch barrage, a little island of taste and restraint in the sea of exhibitionism) and still remain fully compliant with their CC image derivatives policies.

But of course I doubt she'd like being there, so obviously no one should do that. Robert Reed, maybe, if he was looking upwards. That might work. I'm getting a little off-topic, but it does underline the dangers of CC, I think... you've got no control over what people do with your images (or images that other people took of you and released CC), whether it's scouts on a spanking site or a Hollywood Squares-style collage of body parts.

-Mooby

Ah, crap, did I post to the wrong place? Sorry mods, feel free to move/delete/whatever.

--Mooby
Selina
(Mod note: Offtopic discussion about moderation moved to Wikipedia Review where it belongs as people know, here! )
carbuncle
QUOTE(Mooby @ Thu 15th March 2012, 4:33pm) *

Ha ha! Thanks Kohs. It occurs to me that they have a free image of ABD on there, so one could indeed swap her in the middle of that collage (as sort of a palate-cleanser from the crotch barrage, a little island of taste and restraint in the sea of exhibitionism) and still remain fully compliant with their CC image derivatives policies.

But of course I doubt she'd like being there, so obviously no one should do that. Robert Reed, maybe, if he was looking upwards. That might work.

Robert Reed? I don't think he was a big vulva fan, actually...
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